Can vampires go swimming in lakes and oceans unharmed?

To avoid overcomplicating the issue I think the salient question to define running water should be, "Where is it running to?"

Running doesn't mean just any kind of motion, I'd argue. Tides don't count. Waves and wind don't count. Running says that the water starts over -here- and flows over to -there- in a fairly direct manner. It may pause along the way here and there, say, behind a dam or something...but it has a course and a current, and it's hellbent to get where it's going.

A river fed lake is not running. The river that leads up to it is running. The river leading away from it is running. The lake isn't. It's a magical vulnerability of a magical creature! It's not based on physical law. The lake water clearly isn't moving...therefore it's not running. The river water clearly is moving, therefore it's running. :)
 

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I think it's a DM's call too...

Vamps can still cross running water, they just need to be carried or transported in their coffin. This is the usual method I am used to seeing in vampire movies.

Then I need to go back to the mythology to find out why the vampire is afeared of water in the first place, maybe that'll explain the flavor of the rule and I can better decide how to run them IMC. A couple of references suggested that they are not able to cross large bodies as well. ONe of the better excerpts is below:
vampires.monstrous.com said:
Inability to Cross Water
The vampire may not cross running water, except at the ebb and flow of the tide. He may be carried over or at certain times he may change shape and fly or jump over. This is not to say that they cannot swim, but running or flowing water such as rivers, streams, or waterfalls mystically impede the creature’s ability to swim and stay afloat, causing it to drown and perish. This is but a temporal "death", however. Once a vampire’s body is removed from running water, it will return to "life".

"It is said, too, that he can only pass running water at the slack or the flood of tide." - Professor Van Helsing in Mina Harker's Journal, Chapter XVIII of Dracula by Bram Stoker

"The Count, even if he takes the form of a bat, cannot cross the running water of his own volition, and so he cannot leave the ship." - Professor Van Helsing in Jonathan Harker's Journal, Chapter XXV of Dracula by Bram Stoker

It is not known how Stoker arrived at this notion. Perhaps he invented it. But there are precedents for this in folk beliefs.

On some of the Greek islands, including Hydra, Kythnos and Mitylene there was occasionally found the practice of re-burying the corpse of an alleged vampire on a desert island in belief that the vampire could not cross the water to another shore.

In his book The Customs and Lore of Modern Greece (first published in 1892, reprinted in 1968 by Argonaut, Inc.), Rennell Rodd wrote:

"Hydra is said to have been formerly infected by vampires, but a zealous bishop transferred them to the unoccupied island of Therasia, in the Santorin group, where they still walk at night, but being unable to cross salt water, find no one to torment."

One case of this practice on the island of Kythnos recorded by Henry Hautteweur in his Le Folklore de l'Isle de Kythnos (Brussels, 1898) is translated on pages 268-70 of The Vampire in Europe by Montague Summers, first published in 1928.

Here the vampire broukolakas) is a dead man named Andilaveris who terrorized his village every night but Friday, the only time when he must rest in the grave. Finally the village priest, the night watchmen of the cemetery and Church, and some other people exhumed the corpse on a Friday night, put it in a burlap sack, and transported it by barque to the tiny, unihabited island of Daskaleio. But, at some point on this journey, apparently after they reached the islet, the vampire revived from his slumber and attacked the priest by throwing mud and excrement. But somehow they managed in the end to bury him at a remote spot on the desert island.

Montague Summers gives another example in his earlier book, The Vampire: His Kith and Kin, first published in 1927. This one is taken from Travels and Discoveries in the Levant, Volume I, p. 213, by Newton (London, 1866). Summers wrote, as one complete paragraph, the following:

"Newton....says that in Mitylene the bodies of those who will not lie quiet in their gravcs are transported to a small adjacent island, a mere eyeot without inhabitants were they are re-interred. This is an effectual bar to any future molestation for the vampire cannot cross salt water. Running water he too can only pass at the slack or flood of the tide."

Cases of vampires unable to pursue someone any longer after the latter crossed running water are also found in Chinese tales.

This general belief is also applied to other monstrous creatures like fairies.

"If chased by evil fairies, one could generally escape by leaping to safety across running water, particularly a southward flowing stream." - Katherine Briggs - An Encyclopedia of Fairies (Pantheon Books, 1976), p. 336

Given all the information I've been able to find, oceans and lakes would also be considered 'running water' for the purposes of vampire determent. IMC, of course :)
 

Well, in my opinion and as stated in my original post, D&D vampires don't follow the rules of myth and literature, so there's no reason to refer to things outside the RAW. According to the RAW, they don't even need to drink blood. I do agree that it does, of course, come down to a DM's decision. The decision though simply needs to be is flowing water the same as running water, as per defined in the rules. Issues of myths and legends say are inconsequential.
 


Arravis said:
Issues of myths and legends say are inconsequential.

Except when they strongly influence the DM and/or the majority of the players. ;) RAW, I think it is unclear and thus it would be up to the DM. It is not absolutely proven that "flowing water" and "running water" are intended to be equivalent specifically for the purposes of vampire weaknesses.

On a tangentially related note, I once had a vampire killed by Plane Shifting him to an ocean of holy water by Mt. Celestia. :p
 

Shayuri said:
cRunning doesn't mean just any kind of motion, I'd argue. Tides don't count. Waves and wind don't count. Running says that the water starts over -here- and flows over to -there- in a fairly direct manner. It may pause along the way here and there, say, behind a dam or something...but it has a course and a current, and it's hellbent to get where it's going.


By that definition, most natural lakes and all the oceans are actually running, indeed. Most lakes are, actually just "midpoint" of a long stream which start from mountain to the ocean. And Ocean has strong streams, especially around lands. For example, around my county Japan, streams from north and streams from south crash at some points near our lands and making good fishing points. Ocean is flowing and running, actually.
 

Flowing Water is not Equal to Running Water...

By the definition they merely mean that a Vampire doesn't Drown if he sticks his finger into a Glass of Water... or the glass of Water is poured over him (Temporarily running or not)

Hence It is, should be and my interpretation that any Aquatic Enviroment is considered 'Running Water' for this purpose, however Windy it might be on the Given Day.
 

Goolpsy said:
By the definition they merely mean that a Vampire doesn't Drown if he sticks his finger into a Glass of Water... or the glass of Water is poured over him (Temporarily running or not).
Actually, the RAW already cover this issue by mentioning the vampire must be immersed, so that does not help towards defining running water.
 

Shayuri said:
A river fed lake is not running. The river that leads up to it is running. The river leading away from it is running. The lake isn't. It's a magical vulnerability of a magical creature! It's not based on physical law. The lake water clearly isn't moving...therefore it's not running. The river water clearly is moving, therefore it's running. :)

The hydrology of oceans is too complicated so I'll stick to lakes

our local lake is the largest in the southern hemisphere (cookie for anyone who can name it) it has a number of inlets (rivers, streams, swamps) and a single (surface) outlet, it has been calculated that water entering the lake takes approximately 12 years to flow through to the outlet (accounting for alternative use, condensation etc)

so lakes IS moving (flowing) and the various currents and ripples confirm this, it is just moving very slowly be human terms

does this mean it is running? does moving = flowing = running? who knows...

Now a built swimming pool, a stagnant pond or a tidal lagoon aren't running so could be used by a vampire without worry, but not a Lake
 

Arravis said:
Actually, the RAW already cover this issue by mentioning the vampire must be immersed, so that does not help towards defining running water.

What if the Glass is big, like a Water Tank? 'Bathtub?', Swimming pool?
All these are artificial unlike the Usual Water enviroment defines ones.

Again, I wouldn't consider a Vampire immersed in the water coming from an aquaduct for Deadly, however Running it might be.

I don't think "Running" as written in the text defines the 'action' of the Water, but rather the 'Natural' element of Water. => Natural Water is always 'running' in some way (System wise).


With your Interpretation, you could Put a Vampire into a Barrel full of Water, and pour more water into the barrel till it spills of the edge --> "Moving Water" and the Vampire suddenly Dies?
If this doesn't seem Rediculous to you, then i guess i have nothing left to do in this thread :S
 

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