Can you trick someone into Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw?

[Corran]

Can you trick someone into Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw against a different spell that you say you are going to cast?

For example:

Wizard: "I'm gonna cast a spell on you now that will let me see through your eyes, but for it to work I need you to give up your safe."

Not too smart target: "Yeah, sure."

Wizard casts Dominate Person and the target voluntarily gives up his save.

Does the above work? I can't find anywhere that the target would be able to sense that it is the wrong spell and make a save at the last minute.

These are the related rules that I could find:

Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

 

[Kobold Marine]

Does the above work?

Yes. If the DM wants, there can be Bluff/Sense Motive checks involved beforehand.

I can't find anywhere that the target would be able to sense that it is the wrong spell and make a save at the last minute.

It depends on how lenient the DM is. I'd recommend a Spellcraft check, then an opposed initiative roll to determine if the target can do anything about it.

 

[SadisticFishing]

Actually, I'm pretty sure you can tell when a spell is "Harmless" as it's cast on you, and whether or not to resist.

 

[Nifft]

Sure. Spellcraft and Sense Motive are your defenses against people doing this regularly.

It's best if you make it so the target can't make a Spellcraft check. My favorite idea for this is, "hey, I'm going to scry you at 5:45 PM tonight so I can check up on you and possibly teleport to your location; fail a Will save around then, would you?"

Then, be invisible and cast a Silent Dominate Person.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Felix]

Actually, I'm pretty sure you can tell when a spell is "Harmless" as it's cast on you, and whether or not to resist.

After a successful Spellcraft check, I'd agree.

 

[SadisticFishing]

Nah, it's in the nature of "making a save". Your body (even will) automatically reacts to things that it knows are bad for it. Or at least that's what I figure

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, I'm pretty sure you can tell when a spell is "Harmless" as it's cast on you, and whether or not to resist.

I don't think you can... but the Harmless descriptor works for you anyway.

If someone casts a Will negates spell on me, and I don't voluntarily elect to give up my saving throw, I will automatically attempt a save. Thus, even if I'm unconscious, I still have a defence against Dominate Person. (Note that 'considered a willing target' and 'considered to forego a Will save' are completely separate concepts.)

If someone casts a Will negates (harmless) spell on me, I do not automatically attempt a save; however, I may elect to do so. Thus, if I'm unconscious, I have no defence against Lesser Restoration.

So if someone tells you they're casting a harmless spell, don't voluntarily give up your save; rather, make no decision regarding the save. If it's harmless you automatically won't attempt a save, and if it isn't, you automatically will attempt a save.

For the bluff to work, you'll have to choose a spell that is hypothetically beneficial but which is not described as harmless, so that the target must voluntarily forego his save in order for it to take effect.

-Hyp.

 

[SadisticFishing]

Thank you Hyp, otherwise spells like Rouse wouldn't make sense.

I knew someone could argue my argument better than I could!

 

[Felix]

Nah, it's in the nature of "making a save". Your body (even will) automatically reacts to things that it knows are bad for it. Or at least that's what I figure

Thus the question of, "If you're convinced to give up a save, will you?"

Is it possible to intentionally fail a save? Yes.

Is this a conscious action? Yes.

Can a character convince another to do something? Yes.

You may realize when the spell has been cast that you've been betrayed, but have it be too late to do anything about it.



Re: Hyp

That sounds very much like either metagame knowledge, or knowledge a Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcane) would provide. It certainly doesn't seem like knowledge automatically distributed to PCs.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That sounds very much like either metagame knowledge, or knowledge a Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcane) would provide. It certainly doesn't seem like knowledge automatically distributed to PCs.

Isn't "I want you to elect to fail this saving throw" a metagame concept as well?

-Hyp.