Can you trick someone into Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw?

[Hypersmurf]

Here is the flaw in your argument: the character does not "forgo a save"; the character intentionally fails the saving throw that they get.

Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

-Hyp.

 

[Twowolves]

May I play in your game? May I play a Beguiler?

Yes, and no! No beguilers in the Scarred Lands (yet), but I think "Saarland" ain't exactly 'round these parts.

 

[DreamChaser]

Here is the flaw in your argument: the character does not "forgo a save"; the character intentionally fails the saving throw that they get.

Like Hype said, the phrasing does not support this interpretation.

DC

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Yes, and no! No beguilers in the Scarred Lands (yet)

You just don't want me to play the ultimate assassin: "Hey, I just want to cast a nice spell on you, my Bluff bonus is bigger than anything you could roll with 10 people helping you, so forget making your sense motive check and just accept the spell I cast on you, which really is not Dominate Person"

but I think "Saarland" ain't exactly 'round these parts.

It will be, once I united the earth under the iron claw of my tyranny.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

You just don't want me to play the ultimate assassin: "Hey, I just want to cast a nice spell on you, my Bluff bonus is bigger than anything you could roll with 10 people helping you, so forget making your sense motive check and just accept the spell I cast on you, which really is not Dominate Person"

Yeah, it's really a pretty straightforward mechanics issue from my point of view - the disconnect between a dedicated bluffer's bluff check and the average sense motive is so far above the difference between save DC and save that a character of the same level could accomplish, there's no way I'm going to let one be replaced for the other.

 

[Particle_Man]

Another wrinkle: Could a character forgo his Will Save, but still be ready to make a Fort or Reflex save? Or does Forgo a save mean to forgo all three as a package deal?

Because "stand still" seems different from "open your mind" seems different from "relax your body".

 

[Twowolves]

You just don't want me to play the ultimate assassin: "Hey, I just want to cast a nice spell on you, my Bluff bonus is bigger than anything you could roll with 10 people helping you, so forget making your sense motive check and just accept the spell I cast on you, which really is not Dominate Person"

Make sure you know about ALL the campaign specific/house rules before you assume these tricks will work.

But sure, I stand by my opinion that you can talk someone into foregoing a save. Doesn't mean it'll always work, or that there won't be in-game repercussions.

 

[Corran]

By coincidence I just read the following in Dragons of Faerûn (Aggravate Dracorage spell, page 113):

(Nevertheless, many casters of the spell will use subterfuge to trick the target dragon into allowing the spell to be cast freely upon it, thereby avoiding the dragon's high Will save bonus.)​

So it seems at least some designers see this as a regular option.

 

[backbeat]

Anyone considered adding in the False Thuergy trick from complete Scoundrel.

It makes one spell appear as another for the purpose of counterspells and spellcraft checks. Now if only my wizard didn't have a 6 CHA I could totally bluff people into accepting my spells.

 

[Corran]

False Theurgy is the only Skill Trick I immediately banned from my campaigns. It is way too overpowered and the cost to gain it is incredibly low.

I do have to add that this is all theory as I don't think I've ever seen a character counterspell in any of the campaigns I DM or played in.

It seems no one ever thought it effecient to spend a round waiting for someone to cast a certain spell to then get a chance to counter that spell.

I have to admit that I haven't read the counterspell rules since the 3.5 PHB hit the shelves, but from what I remember it seems rather pointless.

(Granted, there are feats, PrCs out there that let you counterspell as a move or swift action if memory serves. In that case it might become a bit more useful.)

This will take this thread drastically off course but I would like to know how prevalent counterspells are in other campaigns.