can you Wild Shape into animals with advanced HD?

[Davelozzi]

Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal...The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level.

Okay, a druid can first start wild shaping at 5th level, and can only shape into small or medium creatures that he or she is familiar with, and only creatures with 5 HD or less. So, a 5th level druid raised in a temperate forest can wild shape into a black bear. A standard black bear is a 3 HD medium size creature, but they can be advanced to 4 or 5 HD (and remain medium sized).

So is there anything preventing this druid from wild shaping into the 5 HD black bear, or should it be only able to take the form of the standard black bear? I don't see anything in the rules that would prevent this but I'm curious as to everyone thinks and how you play it in your game.

By the way, I just used the 5th level druid and black bear as an example, but my question is really about the situation in general. Feel free to substitute other animals and more powerful druids.

And yes, there is a druid in my campaign who's just hit 5th level and gained wild shape, but it's not me -- I'm the DM.

 

[jabberwocky]

I would say that a druid can wildshape into an advanced animal, as long as he meets the HD requirement. But there's no effective difference between wildshaping into a 5HD bear vs. a 3HD bear. They will be the same size, and have the same statistics. The only time wildshaping into an advanced animal would make a difference would be when the advancement changes the animal's size.

 

[Diirk]

No you can't, you turn into the average of the species.. the one the MM provides you with the stats of. However it doesn't matter much seeing as you keep your own hd, BAB, base saves etc when you wild shape.

 

[shilsen]

What Diirk said.

 

[Davelozzi]

However it doesn't matter much seeing as you keep your own hd, BAB, base saves etc when you wild shape.

doh! slaps himself on head

thanks.

 

[Will]

Er, it _does_ make a difference, because a 5 HD bear has a bonus ability score point...

Might make a good epic druid feat, though.

 

[jgsugden]

By the rules, no.

As a side note, my house rules allow for adopting advanced forms with polymorph effects. Although my house rules qre quite a bit removed from the normal polymorph rules, they do give me a bit of insight that might be helpful here.

In general, allowing advanced forms for wildshape/polymorph will not cause too many problems. Except in a few (hard to find) circumstances, there will be a more powerful option available to the PCs by selecting a different form than the advanced version of the lesser form. Allowing PCs to select the advanced version of a particular form just allows them to establish a stronger identity for their PC. For instance, many druids wildshape into the same forms as many other druids as they advance through the levels. If you open up this option, more druids will choose a particular form and stick with it more often, choosing advanced versions of a wolf instead of leaping to a bear.

 

[Otterscrubber]

IMC we decided that yes you can turn into an advanced creature with Wildshape, Polymorph or Shapechange since we could not find anything in the rules to say that it was not an option. Some posts in this thread seem to think that you are limited to only the standard HD listed in the MM, if you can tell me where this is printed I would appreciate it. Otherwise, hey it's magic baby!!!! You want to be a big sparrow, more power to ya.

 

[Will]

Actually, that would make an interesting variant wild shape ability... you can only turn into one shape, but you can turn into successively larger forms.

Black bear, black bear with advancement, brown bear, brown bear with advancement, dire bear, dire bear with advancement... legendary bear?

Maybe add the ability to take on a template, except that once you pick it, you are stuck with it.

 

[allenw]

By the rules, no.
In general, allowing advanced forms for wildshape/polymorph will not cause too many problems. Except in a few (hard to find) circumstances, there will be a more powerful option available to the PCs by selecting a different form than the advanced version of the lesser form.

Here's a case that's come up in both of my last sessions,which is prompting me to rule that you *can't* become an advanced creature:
11th-level Druid is fighting Big Bad Spellcaster. Druid Wild Shapes to a Constrictor Snake (normally Medium)... advanced to 10 HD (Large). Druid grapples. Apart from any STR increase, the Constrictor Snake's +4 STR mod, plus the Druid's +8 BAB, *plus* the +4 to grapple from being a Large creature, means that even a Cleric will be hard-pressed to escape if they didn't have the time and foresight to cast Freedom of Movement beforehand. (Yes, lacking Improved Grapple the Druid is still subject to grapple-denying AoO's, but casters often don't threaten a hex, and when they do the Druid/Snake can still bite-attack normally and then use the Snake's "Improved Grab" on a hit.)
Unlike Vipers, Constrictor Snakes only come in two "standard" sizes: Medium ("Constrictor Snake"), and Huge ("Giant Constrictor Snake") . Eventually the Druid will be able to manage a Huge constrictor, but not until 15th level; until then, I think he'll be limited to Medium.

This does, of course, raise the question of what age categories of Dragons are allowable Polymorph results. If only "Adult" forms were possible, then even the White would be disallowed for Polymorph (though not Shapechange) due to the 15-HD cap.