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Message: <blockquote data-quote="catastrophic" data-source="post: 5653058" data-attributes="member: 81381">Sure, if they're looking for an excuse. But frankly, that's what's going on. People backlashed against 4e because they were angry about change. And then they found excuses and rationalisations for that anger.  Or indeed, large numbers of very real 4e critics making absurd, hyper critical, and often outright wrong statemenets about 4e.  And the fact is, we've vastly more and worse 4e bashing than this single, hugely exagerated incident of the dreaded, terrible, outrageous bytopia bashing. Yeah but again, this actually happens constantly when people bash 4e (see shesheka's trash-talking about play styles earlier), and on the other hand, the criticisms the 4e devs made about 3e were made in fun, obviously not intented to be hurtful, and reacted to by people who were clearly over-reacting with blinding fury to the fact that the newest edition of D&D wasn't to their liking.  Again, why do I get the feeling you'll ignore the actual, real, overwhelmingly greater and more genuine case of this sort of stuff happening, ie the hostility to 4e? I mean, you have, overtly, by even buying into this idea. These outrages over planar trivia and tone of voice are just an excuse people use to justify their own anger and agression on this issue. One might hope that people would be able to, for instance, respect people for having negative but well argued opinions about minor traits of a game they like, and indeed, not react with one of the internet's biggest group temper-tantrums complete with absurdly personal vendettas based on minor comments, when a group of developers decide to design something they don't like. I mean, do any of you in your efforts to be outraged about the mean terrible 4e devs and their meanness towards the plane of vaccum ever consider that maybe, just maybe, you're the ones being agressive, and overly critical? Whatever you can claim about the 4e devs in these criticisms of 3e clearly loom far larger in the backlash against 4e.  And no, you don't get to blame the devs for that backlash- nothing anybody did is actually deserving of the venom which the 4e hate brigade has pushed into the comunity, least of all the wotc devs who dared to slaughter some sacred cows. What you're doing here is pepetuating a scapegoat. So in other words, all criticism is 'saying it's wrong to enjoy them'- you're deliberatly misquoting them there- and doing that is always bad. Do you understand the implications of what you're saying? I would really love to see the product of this 'never say anything the most over-sensitive people on the internet will be offended by' style of game design. I'm sure a game based on that princible would win a whole slew of ennies. Assuming pathfinder wasn't competing that year. You're aiding in misrepresenting the context. Comments like this have been hugely blown out of proportion, against the backdrop of a vicious backlash against 4e that has been extremly personal, critical, intolerant, and makes common use of scapegoats like this to justify itself. No, it doesn't. See, the word history actually means something, and while there is a fair bit of history about sigil in planescape, there is not really that much at all about the great wheel, prior to the two fiendish codex books. Did you evne read the discussion going on, or did you just jump in and start swinging? I was replying to the claim that 4e had no time for non-combat events in the land of fairie, when in reality, it's the first edition to have proper support for such a setting.  Again, you're ignoring the discussion despite trying to enter it. Shemsheka hurled a veiled insult at my preferred playstyle, so I replied by putting things into proper context.  Actually, they did clearly imply that 4e was s shallow, combat oriented game, and that i'd 'found a playstyle' within that. This was a staggering oversight on their part, so I opted to clarify.  No, I proved I run great campaigns because I do. I said 'i went there' because I actually called the ridiculous idea that 4e is a shallow game that doesn't allow for deep settings, histories, campgins, or play styles.</blockquote>

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