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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5655857" data-attributes="member: 957">I really don't have a dog in the cosmolgy fight.  I respect that some do and agree that that it was boneheaded of WotC to not think about the full range of their audience, but they made that error in more ways than just this one, so whatever.But I take issue with your claim on two fronts.  You call 4e "superior" on this front.  (Strictly speaking this has nothing to do with system and everything to do with default, and disposable, setting.) You base this on the traditional cosmology being frontloaded with elements A - G (or whatever) to choose from, unlike 4E which allows whatever the player brings to the table, be it element B or element JJJ.  But the break down there is that you seem to find the front loading of A - G to somehow be an impediment to using JJJ.  That doesn't follow at all.And second, I see having the conflict brought to the player as a real benefit.  I'm not saying that letting each player define the world and conflicts as they go is a bad thing.  But to me having elements of the plot and conflicts (physical, ethical, whatever) being imposed on the characters and then giving the character free reign to respond to and contend with this conflicts as they see fit has a much more rewarding nature.  And, as a bonus, you can still have everything you claim 4E has, you just talk to the DM outside of the game.  This is a pretty abstract view of the issue, but this comes back to the whole simualtion vs gamist debate.  These are the kind of things a character within a novel doesn't, and shouldn't, have moment by moment control over.  And while giving the players that power may be hugely fun (absolutely not challenging "fun" here), it very quickly becomes not like being "inside a novel" but much more like playing a game, in which having control over these types of things doesn't seem out of place.  Thus you are doing "game" things, not "novel/story" things.  And simply putting a narrative on top of something that wouldn't fit well in a novel doesn't make it a good story centric device.</blockquote>

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