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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 5658158" data-attributes="member: 48965">Hmm, why do you say this? I look at the racial section and there is information on the cultures, lands, religions, alignment tendencies, names, etc. for the players to read that all tie them to 3.5's default world. The classes have background information, information on how and why they adventure, the religions they favor, and so on that all ties into the default world. There is a chapter that discusses alignment, the gods (with some animosities cited like the one between Hextor & Heironeous or Corellon and Gruumsh). The monsters in the MM are certainly tied to the default world, I mean the descriptions hint at the conceits of the world. Just by reading the Basilisk entry I know that the wealthy in this world sometimes keep them as pets, or that Archons come from Celestia and Demons are native to the Abyss. What exactly are you missing in 3.5 that you get in 4e?    Maybe this is because you are not looking at the complete package? IMO, the planes symetry seems very much based around being a backdrop for thematic conflict... while the players themselves need look no further than the Planar Handbook and the races, heritage feats, faction prestige classes and so on to build a character that expresses the type of thematic conflict they wish to explore or engage in if they want that to be the focus of play.   How do 4e's rules, in any way, set this "expectation". This sounds more like you read the 4e fluff and liked it so you came up with a cool adventure hook... which I might add would work just as well in 3.5. But nothing in the PHB Ranger class or the PHB Elf race even hints at this. Is there even a mechanic that would allow a player to do this?   Aren't they actually, in both games, only available with the correct knowledge check?  They are only "familiar" and thus transparent to those are familiar with classic mythology... to many the tropes of Sword and Sorcery, Weird Fantasy, and even Harry Potter are more familiar aqnd far more exciting than the ones used in 4e now.  Wait a minute so what are all those lore checks in 4e for again? The games run the same in this aspect, you just prefer one over the other. If not then it's easy enough for a DM in either game to disregard how knowledge checks work and throw everything open to the players.  OAN...I don't think Planescape gives credence to the fact that all beliefs have the same metaphysical weight. What Planescape says is that in order to give these beliefs metaphysical weight it will cost you blood, sweat, and tears. You are all opposing philosophers with blades and the actual chance to make sure your beliefs affect the multiverse or fail trying... at leats IMO.  With 4e's horrible track record with advetures (which you always seem more than willing to overlook or ignore in these discussions) are we really going to judge Planescape by the published adventures?  Well I guess we are falling back on using published modules (again why don't you judge the thematic content of 4e by the same basis?)...All I'll say is that I notice you didn't once mention the actual campaign setting itself or claim you ran an actual Planescape game.  Again check out the Planar Handbook or even the actual Planescape campaign setting (which if I am not mistaken, and I could be, I find extremely odd you are comparing if in fact you have never actually read it.) The thing is I could run a nooks and crannies exploration just as easily in 4e as in 3.5.    Sooo, because the Angel and Devil aren't in an out and out brawl... they aren't in conflict. this seems like a lack of imagination on your part.   You do realize that everything that happens in Planescape once play starts is up to the individual players right? Who said you can't try to drive all the fiends from Sigil... and succeed if you are clever enough. Who said there isn't a way to overthrow the Lady of Pain? but also who said that whatever you decide to do will succeed. Where others have just accepted the Lady's rule...just the act of trying to overthrow her is a meaningful choice.  I don't think it would change your view of Planescape either way.</blockquote>

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