Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
cancelled 5e announcement at Gencon??? Anyone know anything about this?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 5659410" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>Y'know, it surprised me when I learned that so many people were so deeply butthurt about wizards in 3e. I mean, here you've got a classic "paper tiger" kind of class, who could do pretty effective things when they could do anything at all. They were not very good in a combat, since spells were prone to interruption, did crap for damage, and didn't work half the time. </p><p></p><p>It took me a while to realize that their problem wasn't that spellcasters were <em>powerful</em>, but that spellcasters <em>could do things other classes couldn't, just as a function of their class</em>. My wizard gets fly. Your fighter can't fly (unless they happen to find the right magic item). My wizard gets fireball. Your fighter can't fireball (unless they find the right magic item). My wizard gets charm. Your fighter can't charm...etc.</p><p></p><p>Spellcasters also changed the rules of the game. SR came into play because of spells. Save-or-die hurts your big cinematic combat, and neither result is desirable. Exploration spells gave DMs headaches thinking of ways to thwart teleporting and flight. Divination spells gave DMs headaches thinking of ways to thwart knowledge gained with a simple class ability. Climaxes were ruined all over the place, or DMs bit the bullet of a magical arms race. They forced the DM's hand. </p><p></p><p>So instead of addressing that issue directly, 4e just said, "Nope, we're not going to do it," turned everything into a combat spell, and shoehorned the leftovers into rituals, which were kind of obviously an afterthought.</p><p></p><p>And so people proclaimed it "fixed," since spellcasters now only did the exact same thing that everyone else did, just with different names, making it easy to predict a party's capability, and making sure a DM had to do next-to-nothing to ensure their adventure was climactic. </p><p></p><p>But, it wasn't "fixed" it was just nixed. And people who enjoyed -- or even who didn't mind -- the aspect of the game that let them do things like charm and teleport and divine the future were rather understandably annoyed that the designers had thought so little of the way that they had been having fun for years that they just <em>deleted</em> it. And so they left to support a company that has continued to support their playstyle.</p><p></p><p>And they've supported that company to the point that it has become the reigning #1 tabletop RPG company. </p><p></p><p>Which at least means, to my mind, that if it is unbalanced, that it is to such a small degree that people who are buying RPG books really don't give a flying flumph, making those earlier criticisms seem overblown, and the WotC response to them seem draconian. </p><p></p><p>"OH GOD, MY CHILDREN ARE MILDLY DUSTY!"</p><p>WotC: "Guess we're going to have to rip off their skin so they can never get dusty again!"</p><p>Audience A: "Yay! No more dusty children ever! That dust was SO annoying! Now I can take my kid to fancy society functions!"</p><p>Audience B: "Um...gross and no. What? You don't need to do that."</p><p>Paizo: "Well, all I've got is this muddy rag, but maybe it'll help? And maybe you'd like a muddy kid better than a child with no skin?"</p><p>Audience A: "Bah! That child is still very dirty! It is gross, how can you take it?"</p><p>Audience B: "Yeah, no, we'll take that...perhaps we can find a way to clean them off later that doesn't rip off their skin?"</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 5659410, member: 2067"] Y'know, it surprised me when I learned that so many people were so deeply butthurt about wizards in 3e. I mean, here you've got a classic "paper tiger" kind of class, who could do pretty effective things when they could do anything at all. They were not very good in a combat, since spells were prone to interruption, did crap for damage, and didn't work half the time. It took me a while to realize that their problem wasn't that spellcasters were [I]powerful[/I], but that spellcasters [I]could do things other classes couldn't, just as a function of their class[/I]. My wizard gets fly. Your fighter can't fly (unless they happen to find the right magic item). My wizard gets fireball. Your fighter can't fireball (unless they find the right magic item). My wizard gets charm. Your fighter can't charm...etc. Spellcasters also changed the rules of the game. SR came into play because of spells. Save-or-die hurts your big cinematic combat, and neither result is desirable. Exploration spells gave DMs headaches thinking of ways to thwart teleporting and flight. Divination spells gave DMs headaches thinking of ways to thwart knowledge gained with a simple class ability. Climaxes were ruined all over the place, or DMs bit the bullet of a magical arms race. They forced the DM's hand. So instead of addressing that issue directly, 4e just said, "Nope, we're not going to do it," turned everything into a combat spell, and shoehorned the leftovers into rituals, which were kind of obviously an afterthought. And so people proclaimed it "fixed," since spellcasters now only did the exact same thing that everyone else did, just with different names, making it easy to predict a party's capability, and making sure a DM had to do next-to-nothing to ensure their adventure was climactic. But, it wasn't "fixed" it was just nixed. And people who enjoyed -- or even who didn't mind -- the aspect of the game that let them do things like charm and teleport and divine the future were rather understandably annoyed that the designers had thought so little of the way that they had been having fun for years that they just [I]deleted[/I] it. And so they left to support a company that has continued to support their playstyle. And they've supported that company to the point that it has become the reigning #1 tabletop RPG company. Which at least means, to my mind, that if it is unbalanced, that it is to such a small degree that people who are buying RPG books really don't give a flying flumph, making those earlier criticisms seem overblown, and the WotC response to them seem draconian. "OH GOD, MY CHILDREN ARE MILDLY DUSTY!" WotC: "Guess we're going to have to rip off their skin so they can never get dusty again!" Audience A: "Yay! No more dusty children ever! That dust was SO annoying! Now I can take my kid to fancy society functions!" Audience B: "Um...gross and no. What? You don't need to do that." Paizo: "Well, all I've got is this muddy rag, but maybe it'll help? And maybe you'd like a muddy kid better than a child with no skin?" Audience A: "Bah! That child is still very dirty! It is gross, how can you take it?" Audience B: "Yeah, no, we'll take that...perhaps we can find a way to clean them off later that doesn't rip off their skin?" [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
cancelled 5e announcement at Gencon??? Anyone know anything about this?
Top