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cancelled 5e announcement at Gencon??? Anyone know anything about this?
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<blockquote data-quote="Vyvyan Basterd" data-source="post: 5662176" data-attributes="member: 4892"><p>This was not equally true between AD&D and 3x. At least the managing of resources. Spellcasters in 3E have many more spells/day than their AD&D counterparts. They also have ways to boost the DCs for the saves against their spells where AD&D casters have a static save chart, thus making the 3E spells potentially more effective and requiring less resources to do more. 3E casters have more access to scrolls/wands either the magic item economy encouraged by the books or via core feats that allowed creation merely by spending gold. AD&D casters had vague rules for creating such items with suggestions that the DM send them on a quest to find the rare components necessary.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>To you. To me as well, but I'd never claim it's the "main form" for everyone.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except <strong>no one</strong> here is stating that this is the reason balance was important to them. In my own case it was, as DM, I could not find a satisfactory way to challenge each party member and achieve "sometimes you get to be the center of attention, other times your friends are." Either the weaker characters were over-challenged and could not shine or the stronger characters were under-challenged and made quick work of things so the weaker characters could not shine. I personally did not have the caster problem nor the 15MAD issue in my games, but others did crop up in power gap.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>To me, they accomplished a great meld bewteen my favorite two RPGs of all time, D&D and Earthdawn.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>To me, it sounds like you are saying "If you don't think balance in play is the only balance of actual importance then you are having badwrongfun."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Like I said I didn't have the 15MAD problem in 3E, nor the caster problem. But I can see where others are coming from. You admit that the stakes must be high enough. But how far do you push this? You can't force the players to believe that the stakes are high enough as that would be railroading. So they could decide, as a group even, that none of your stakes are important to them, that their desire to nova/rest/repeat is greater than any stakes you place on them. The system allows them to do this. What is the ultimate end to this game of chicken? The damsel dies? So what, we nova/rest/repeat. A powerful godling is released? So what, he seems nice enough, we nova/rest/repeat. You took too long to respond, now the world is destroyed, the end. There is nothing stopping a group of players from doing the 15MAD if that is what they are determined to do. And when you blow up the world as DM, I'm pretty sure all involved will be left dissatisfied. This is of course an extreme angle, I understand, but it can outline what happens when friends get together and have different playstyle expectations.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've certainly used it. But what happens when you say "the maiden has been kidnapped" and the players say "so what?"</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Unless they leave town because, you know, goblins are burning down the town.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What if they don't care if she's sacrificed?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Unless, of course, they don't care if the town gets invaded or burned to the ground. In my campaigns they would care on all three points and I flat out tell my players that I run heroic campaigns where they are expected to approach things this way or we don't have a game I wish to run. But you cannot assume that every game has these priorities, just like you can't assume every game has the problems others have encountered. This is all very good advice for groups whose games run much like your own.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Vyvyan Basterd, post: 5662176, member: 4892"] This was not equally true between AD&D and 3x. At least the managing of resources. Spellcasters in 3E have many more spells/day than their AD&D counterparts. They also have ways to boost the DCs for the saves against their spells where AD&D casters have a static save chart, thus making the 3E spells potentially more effective and requiring less resources to do more. 3E casters have more access to scrolls/wands either the magic item economy encouraged by the books or via core feats that allowed creation merely by spending gold. AD&D casters had vague rules for creating such items with suggestions that the DM send them on a quest to find the rare components necessary. To you. To me as well, but I'd never claim it's the "main form" for everyone. Except [B]no one[/B] here is stating that this is the reason balance was important to them. In my own case it was, as DM, I could not find a satisfactory way to challenge each party member and achieve "sometimes you get to be the center of attention, other times your friends are." Either the weaker characters were over-challenged and could not shine or the stronger characters were under-challenged and made quick work of things so the weaker characters could not shine. I personally did not have the caster problem nor the 15MAD issue in my games, but others did crop up in power gap. To me, they accomplished a great meld bewteen my favorite two RPGs of all time, D&D and Earthdawn. To me, it sounds like you are saying "If you don't think balance in play is the only balance of actual importance then you are having badwrongfun." Like I said I didn't have the 15MAD problem in 3E, nor the caster problem. But I can see where others are coming from. You admit that the stakes must be high enough. But how far do you push this? You can't force the players to believe that the stakes are high enough as that would be railroading. So they could decide, as a group even, that none of your stakes are important to them, that their desire to nova/rest/repeat is greater than any stakes you place on them. The system allows them to do this. What is the ultimate end to this game of chicken? The damsel dies? So what, we nova/rest/repeat. A powerful godling is released? So what, he seems nice enough, we nova/rest/repeat. You took too long to respond, now the world is destroyed, the end. There is nothing stopping a group of players from doing the 15MAD if that is what they are determined to do. And when you blow up the world as DM, I'm pretty sure all involved will be left dissatisfied. This is of course an extreme angle, I understand, but it can outline what happens when friends get together and have different playstyle expectations. I've certainly used it. But what happens when you say "the maiden has been kidnapped" and the players say "so what?" Unless they leave town because, you know, goblins are burning down the town. What if they don't care if she's sacrificed? Unless, of course, they don't care if the town gets invaded or burned to the ground. In my campaigns they would care on all three points and I flat out tell my players that I run heroic campaigns where they are expected to approach things this way or we don't have a game I wish to run. But you cannot assume that every game has these priorities, just like you can't assume every game has the problems others have encountered. This is all very good advice for groups whose games run much like your own. [/QUOTE]
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cancelled 5e announcement at Gencon??? Anyone know anything about this?
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