Canny Defense-like abilities: Overpowered?

[LazarusLong42]

A set of three feats:

Canny Dodge [General]
You are smarter than the avergae bear. You can watch blades and maces flying, and know where they are about to hit.

Prerequisite: Int 13+, Combat Expertise
Benefit: Add half of your Intelligence bonus (up to your total class level) as a dodge bonus to your AC. You lose this bonus if you are caught flat-footed, or otherwise denied your Dex bonus to AC.
Special: Canny Dodge does not stack with a monk's Wis bonus to AC.


Sage Defense [General]
Your defense-fu is strong. You are wise in the ways of combat, and can intuit where blades may fall.

Prerequisite: Wis 13+, Iron Will
Benefit: Add half of your Wisdom bonus (up to your total class level) as a dodge bonus to your AC. You lose this bonus if you are caught flat-footed, or otherwise denied your Dex bonus to AC.
Special: Sage Defense does not stack with a monk's Wis bonus to AC.


Artful Dodger [General]
You float like a butterfly. You can subtly manipulate your opponent into thinking you will move one way, then move the other.

Prerequisite: Cha 13+, Negotiator OR Persuasive
Benefit: Add half of your Charisma bonus (up to your total class level) as a dodge bonus to your AC. You lose this bonus if you are caught flat-footed, or otherwise denied your Dex bonus to AC.
Special: Artful Dodger does not stack with a monk's Wis bonus to AC. It also does not change your character's name to Jack Dawkins.

 

[Scion]

I can sortof almost see why you wouldnt want the wisdom one to stack for monks, but the others? why not?

 

[AeroDm]

I agree with Scion. Would you include second tier feats that allows you to get the other half of your stat? Otherwise stats of 15, 16, 17 (pretty common) are worthless until they reach 18.

 

[Spatzimaus]

I'd say it's too powerful of a concept. Compare it to Dodge; even if you think Dodge should be upped to "+1 AC vs all opponents", these Feats are better in every way. There's a practical limit to DEX in that armor restricts you beyond a certain point, so even those classes that prefer high DEX won't just keep raising it ad nauseum.

On the other hand, a Wizard or Cleric will put all their effort into raising their INT/WIS anyway. An INT of 18 for a Wizard is relatively low, but it'd still give a +2 to AC with your Feat. It's not uncommon to see a 20th-level Wizard with an INT approaching 30, which'd be a +5 AC bonus that stacks with almost everything, for the cost of one Feat.

My suggestion is to add another link or two to the chain, and tie it into some other Feats. For example, here's a rough idea; make three Dodge-equivalent Feats, three midrange ones that require Dodge, and three high-end ones:
(I'm making these up as I go, so the balance might be a bit off, and it'd be better to come up with unique names for each)

MINOR CANNY DODGE: INT 13+
You receive a +1 dodge bonus to AC. You may not receive this bonus when wearing armor or using a shield. Anything that denies you your DEX bonus to AC also denies this bonus.
(MINOR SAGE DEFENSE is the same except WIS 13+, MINOR ARTFUL DODGER is the same except CHA 13+)

CANNY DODGE: INT 15+, Minor Canny Dodge, Dodge
The dodge AC bonus for Minor Canny Dodge can be used while wearing armor or using a shield.
The Dodge feat is twice as effective. (That is, you get +2 dodge AC from Dodge, and +1 from Minor Canny Dodge, for a total of +3 against that one target)

SAGE DEFENSE: WIS 15+, Minor Sage Defense, Dodge
The dodge AC bonus for Minor Sage Defense can be used while wearing armor or using a shield.
The target designated for the Dodge feat cannot take an Attack of Opportunity against you; no matter how distracted you get, you remain perceptive enough that you will never accidentally leave that person an opening.

ARTFUL DODGER: CHA 15+, Minor Artful Dodger, Dodge
The dodge AC bonus for Minor Sage Defense can be used while wearing armor or using a shield.
The target designated for the Dodge feat suffers a -2 penalty to all damage rolls when attacking you. (They just can't bring themselves to hit something that pretty...)

And then, the three high-end ones:

CANNY EXPERTISE: INT 17+, Canny Dodge, Combat Expertise
When using the Combat Expertise ability, you receive an additional dodge bonus to AC. The amount of this bonus equals the benefit given by Combat Expertise, but no more half of your INT bonus (round down).
(That is, you get double benefit from Combat Expertise but it caps at half your INT bonus, so INT 18 means the first two Expertise points are doubled, to a total of +4 AC for -2 attack. It may seem small, but gaining a couple AC in every situation has some nice advantages.)

SOLID MIND: WIS 17+, Sage Defense, Iron Will
You are immune to Mind-Influencing effects.
(I was just going to say "add half your WIS bonus again to Will saves", which'd do a x1.5 thing, but that effectively makes you immune to Will saves anyway)

ARTFUL STRIKER: CHA 17+, Artful Dodger, Combat Reflexes
When making an Attack of Opportunity, you add half your CHA bonus to the attack roll.

 

[Nifft]

I agree with Spatzimaus -- you should compare the proposed Feats to Dodge, not to class abilities.

-- N

 

[LazarusLong42]

Huh. Two people think they're underpowered, two think they're overpowered... Interesting.

To answer Scion's concern: The intention was that you can't have more than one of these, in any form--and a monk's Wis bonus is better than Sage Defense.

To AeroDM: I think that would start getting into seriously overpowered territory.

To counter the "stacks with everything": Crud, I'd forgotten that dodge bonuses stack with one another. These should probably be all changed to insight or competence bonuses.

To Spatzimaus:

(1) I think most people consider Dodge to be useful almost entirely as a gateway to Mobility/Spring Attack. I might be wrong.

(2) As to a Wiz20 with Int 30 getting a +5 to AC: That same Wiz could, without expending a feat, cast shield pretty much any time he needed it for +4 to AC. Without taking Combat Expertise.

Part of these feats is that they require another feat that will be useful... but not necessarily one you'd normally take. High-Int characters include Wizards and... well, Wizards. How many Wizards take Expertise? How many Clr/Drd take Iron Will?

(Looking at these now, though, I think Negotiator and/or Persuasive would be likely picks for Pal or Brd, which makes that feat a bit easy for them to get to.)

How would y'all feel if these applied only with light armor (or only with no armor perhaps), and were insight bonuses?

(EDIT: Also, Spatzimaus: I do like those high-end feats. Very much.)

 

[Nifft]

Part of these feats is that they require another feat that will be useful... but not necessarily one you'd normally take. High-Int characters include Wizards and... well, Wizards. How many Wizards take Expertise? How many Clr/Drd take Iron Will?

Rogues also favor high Int: Search, Disable Device, Expertise, Improved Feint, these are all Rogue-friendly and Int-favoring.

The way I see it is that the Core designers made you choose between:
- Rogue: Great damage in limited tactical situations (Sneak Attack);
- Fighter: Great chance to hit, have a good AC, and have the Feats to do special tricks; or
- Monk: Great tactical mobility.

It's quite tempting to consider putting all of them into one package, but IMHO it's unbalancing. Monks have great mobility in no small part because they're discouraged from wearing armor. Rogues have mid-level mobility, and they typically wear light armor. Fighters often wear heavy armor, which limits mobility -- they aren't required to wear heavy armor, but they don't have class bonuses like the Monk's speed or even the Rogue's Tumble skill.

-- N

 

[Scion]

Dodge sucks, plain and simple. At worst it should have been +1 dodge bonus to your ac anytime you havent lost your dex bonus. That would save on headaches of having to declare, make it easier to keep track of on the character sheet, and make it easier for new players.

I like the feats you have here, they have higher prereqs, qualify as second tier feats, and should be better than dodge because of that.

The feats above are fine, other than not allowing monks to get it it'd be cool to let someone take all three of these. That is 6 feats, and you have to have 3 very high stats in order to gain the benefit. No problems.