Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique

FrogReaver · Dec 16, 2018

<head desk>

I have done previously. I will do so once more, but the next time you expect me to repeat myself I will simply tell you no, and move on.

Firstly, I wasn’t talking about upcasting in that post, nor have I made that part of my arguments in this thread. Feel free to ask others for that explanation, though I do agree with them.

Okay.

That out of the way, the reason that the ability to cast any level 1 spell you know/have prepared in a level 1 slot is simple. As I said before, the spell isn’t a class feature. It’s a thing you can do with the class feature. The spell slot is a class feature. With it, you can cast any of several spells. A level 1 spell slot, therefor, is what must be compared to a cantrip.

So your argument is basically that I'm not comparing the correct thing to a cantrip? Okay. May I have some reason why a 1st level slot "must be compared to a cantrip?" (As you put it)

Also, you previously stated "I wasn’t talking about upcasting in that post, nor have I made that part of my arguments in this thread. Feel free to ask others for that explanation, though I do agree with them." in this very post that I'm quoting. Isn't it a contradiction to agree with those that are comparing the spell itself which can be upcast to the cantrip and then say the spell slot must be what the cantrip is compared with?

Cantrips have, at most, 4 options. Most characters will have at least one utility cantrip, so let’s say 2-3 options for damage. 1st and 2nd level spells can easily have twice that, that do things no cantrip can do.
Even if damage were numerically identical, being able to do the right damage, with more options for how you do it (cone, AoE, no-roll), means that the level 1 slot, counting only damage dealing spells as options for that slot, is more powerful than the cantrip.

The funny thing is that I agree with all this. Why do you write paragraphs about stuff we agree on? Your current dispute with me is actually about whether a spell slot must be compared with a cantrip or whether other things can be compared with a cantrip. Don't you agree?

Again, this is about part of your premise being wrong. That is, the premise that the specific unique spell is the feature that is in competition with your damage cantrips.

Hopefully you can give some reasons for that, because from where I sit I should be able to compare anything I desire to a cantrip as long as the comparison I'm making is ultimately true.

Hussar · Dec 16, 2018

FrogReaver said:
The only time advantage matters with guiding bolt is when you hit, the original dice would have missed but the advantage dice hits. You are going to net maybe a 15% chance of that event occurring in the best case. So far I can't think of any case where this is legitimately going to amount to anything more than another d8 damage.

Well, it would be d8+stat, and, that's all it needs to be better than a cantrip from a 17t level caster.

IOW, the spell works as written and is better than a cantrip at all levels.

Again, what's the problem? Oh, and let's not forget that clerics get virtually no damaging spells. Very, very few. Their cantrips are their primary source of damage, much like a warlock. Druids fare a bit better, but, not a heck of a lot. Their primary damage source for spells is going to be their cantrips. That's the way the classes are built.

cbwjm · Dec 17, 2018

S'mon said:
I would prefer it if most cantrips didn't scale. I'll make an exception for Eldritch Blast. I'm not keen on Clerics & Druids as pew-pew casters; I'd rather they were using weapons for their routine attacks.

The problem with this is that only the clerics that are worth making a single weapon attack are the ones that gain divine strike. Even then, once you hit 17th level (assuming you do hit level 17), a cantrip like sacred flame deals slightly more damage. If you are a cleric that gains potent cantrip then it is almost always better to use a cantrip.

Then we come to the druid. They don't get any scaling weapon damage like cleric subclasses and instead have to rely on wildshape to pick up the slack (even a non-moon druid can transform into a brown bear at level 8, that might not be as useful at higher levels though).

Hussar · Dec 17, 2018

I think the solution to that is to give druids and clerics a bit more oomph with weapons. Granting them a second attack at say, 6th level would largely solve the problem. Then remove direct damage cantrips or at least remove the scaling.

Possibly add more cantrips like Shillelagh that directly add to weapon damage might help as well.

doctorbadwolf · Dec 17, 2018

S'mon said:
I would prefer it if most cantrips didn't scale. I'll make an exception for Eldritch Blast. I'm not keen on Clerics & Druids as pew-pew casters; I'd rather they were using weapons for their routine attacks.

Ill never understand why folks want either class to be using weapons as their main means of fighting. Is it just tradition?

FrogReaver said:
Okay.

So your argument is basically that I'm not comparing the correct thing to a cantrip? Okay. May I have some reason why a 1st level slot "must be compared to a cantrip?" (As you put it)

I stated my argument explicitly.

Also, you previously stated "I wasn’t talking about upcasting in that post, nor have I made that part of my arguments in this thread. Feel free to ask others for that explanation, though I do agree with them." in this very post that I'm quoting. Isn't it a contradiction to agree with those that are comparing the spell itself which can be upcast to the cantrip and then say the spell slot must be what the cantrip is compared with?

No, it isn’t a contradiction. Why on earth would it be?

I know that you know what an aside is. Either engage with the point of my posts or ignore them entirely. I don’t, and will never, care about weird wording nit picks. Ever.

The funny thing is that I agree with all this. Why do you write paragraphs about stuff we agree on? Your current dispute with me is actually about whether a spell slot must be compared with a cantrip or whether other things can be compared with a cantrip. Don't you agree?

If you don’t think that some part of my post is part of the actual argument we’re having, just ignore it and respond to the parts that are. Why are you making a thing of it?

Hopefully you can give some reasons for that, because from where I sit I should be able to compare anything I desire to a cantrip as long as the comparison I'm making is ultimately true.

again ignoring the point to quibble about a word choice. Meh.

Zardnaar · Dec 17, 2018

Clerics with weapons marry them to other buff spells. Spirit Guardians for example and they get an extra dice at 8 and 14 or can use cantrip borrowed from other classes.

Druids basically suck with weapons after lvl 4.

schnee · Dec 17, 2018

S'mon said:
I would prefer it if most cantrips didn't scale. I'll make an exception for Eldritch Blast. I'm not keen on Clerics & Druids as pew-pew casters; I'd rather they were using weapons for their routine attacks.

Clerics don't go 'pew pew', they either go 'Burn with holy fire!' as that person literally catches flame where they stand, or 'Feel your death, mortal!' as a doom-sounding bell tolls. Druids hurl a fireball like a literal Ryu Hadouken - one that burns flesh but not the plants or trees.

Those are all pretty bad-ass.

S'mon · Dec 17, 2018

schnee said:
Clerics don't go 'pew pew', they either go 'Burn with holy fire!' as that person literally catches flame where they stand, or 'Feel your death, mortal!' as a doom-sounding bell tolls. Druids hurl a fireball like a literal Ryu Hadouken - one that burns flesh but not the plants or trees.

Those are all pretty bad-ass.

Cantrips feel pretty pew-pew to me.

S'mon · Dec 17, 2018

doctorbadwolf said:
Ill never understand why folks want either class to be using weapons as their main means of fighting. Is it just tradition?

Yes, I'd like them to not feel like wizards/sorcerers, which they do now.

doctorbadwolf · Dec 17, 2018

S'mon said:
Yes, I'd like them to not feel like wizards/sorcerers, which they do now.

How? They've all always been full casters, but having melee weapons as a backup rather than the wizard's crossbow really made that big a difference?

They have very different spells, and surely they could have even more different cantrips if they aren't different enough.

Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique

FrogReaver

The most respectful and polite poster ever

Hussar

Legend

cbwjm

Seb-wejem

Hussar

Legend

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

Zardnaar

Legend

schnee

First Post

S'mon

Legend

S'mon

Legend

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

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