D&D 5E (2014) Cantrip nerf (house rule brainstorm)

[doctorbadwolf]

In many situations, it isn't.

I definitely disagree.

 

[fearsomepirate]

OK. So which martial classes do you feel overshadow primary casters in the three pillars of the game, and what are their abilities that allow them to do so?

At most levels, they overshadow primary casters in single-target damage, especially over more than maybe 3 rounds, and the abilities that allow them to do so are Action Surge, Sneak Attack, Extra Attack, Hunter's Mark, Reckless Attack, etc. And, of course, it's not just theoretical white-room damage. It's often the case that, due to the lower damage ceiling, your biggest damage spells are simply not worth the resource expenditure. Better save that 5th-level slot and just cast Toll the Dead instead.

 

[Mistwell]

So it's pointless book-keeping for no functional change? As I said, either you're nerfing the casters hard, or you're making the resource plentiful enough that there is no meaningful difference between what you did and just making cantrips at-will other than needing to do more book-keeping in combat. If the cleric can still use his 2d8+4 cantrip instead of his 1d8+2 crossbow whenever he casts Healing Word, why bother with the book-keeping at all?

Unless you think quicken spell is so plentiful that keeping track of it is pointless book-keeping, your reply is an exaggeration with no merit.

 

[Ancalagon]

To put it another, very simple way, 5e brought the caster power ceiling down a lot, but also raised the floor. By getting rid of damage cantrips, you're dropping the floor basically back to what it used to be, but the ceiling is still lower.

it's to avoid the "quadratic wizard" problem. And honestly, I think it's a good thing.

 

[jgsugden]

...

Situationally, if Mold Earth and Mending etc are infinitely spammable, they put whole occupations out of work. Moving a 5ft cube of earth 5 feet every 6 seconds (or whatever time a round represents these days) basically makes shovels obsolete, Prestidigitation does the same for pretty much any cleaning task, and Mending means that stuff absolutely never need wear out or remain broken, and the implications of THAT on the economics of people trying to make a living from (for instance) tailoring or shoemaking or damn near any form of craftsmanship are pretty obvious.

You're a farmer. You have 2 kids. One is super smart and one is super strong.

The strong one you can put to work on the farm with little to no training. Instant gratification.

The smart one - maybe you can send him to a wizard to learn magic. How much would that cost? Do you think the wizard wants to do it for free? Do you think the boy can earn his keep - can he do anything that an unseen servant or a few cantrips can't do much better? No, you're going to have to pay that wizard to train the boy, and that would be years of education, as well as hundreds of gold pieces for a spellbook with 6 spells. At a GP a day (a steal), that boy's education and resources would cost thousands of gold! By the time he was educated and free to return, the strong kid would have done years of work. Then, the wizard would have the choice to stay and work on the farm, or go off and make more money elsewhere... I hope you raised that kid to be loyal to his family before you sent him off for years.

People that can cast cantrips have better things to do than use them for profit. You might run into the occasional wizard willing to cast mending to supplement his income, but that would be rare.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

...You're a farmer. You have 2 kids. One is super smart and one is super strong.

The strong one you can put to work on the farm with little to no training. Instant gratification.

The smart one - maybe you can send him to a wizard to learn magic. How much would that cost? Do you think the wizard wants to do it for free? Do you think the boy can earn his keep - can he do anything that an unseen servant or a few cantrips can't do much better? No, you're going to have to pay that wizard to train the boy, and that would be years of education, as well as hundreds of gold pieces for a spellbook with 6 spells. At a GP a day (a steal), that boy's education and resources would cost thousands of gold! By the time he was educated and free to return, the strong kid would have done years of work. Then, the wizard would have the choice to stay and work on the farm, or go off and make more money elsewhere... I hope you raised that kid to be loyal to his family before you sent him off for years.

People that can cast cantrips have better things to do than use them for profit. You might run into the occasional wizard willing to cast mending to supplement his income, but that would be rare.

This assumes that you have to become a full wizard to cast cantrips, just for a start at the issues here.

Next, the ruling class will pay for the education of anyone with the talent to gain those powers, or a guild will form. Possibly both.

Because mold earth is a huge game changer. No way it ever becomes ubiquitous enough to “replace shovels” unless the ability to learn to cast spells is basically “anyone can learn at least basic magic”, in which case you get a world like that of the Dark Sword series, where people who can’t cast spells are second class, and we are talking a whole different kind of world from most D&D worlds.

However, a few such people per petty kingdom still wildly changes the world. Mold Earth allows easy irrigation, fortification, foundational building, etc. Its pretty gnarly.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

At most levels, they overshadow primary casters in single-target damage, especially over more than maybe 3 rounds, and the abilities that allow them to do so are Action Surge, Sneak Attack, Extra Attack, Hunter's Mark, Reckless Attack, etc. And, of course, it's not just theoretical white-room damage. It's often the case that, due to the lower damage ceiling, your biggest damage spells are simply not worth the resource expenditure. Better save that 5th-level slot and just cast Toll the Dead instead.

OK, so you think it is just single target damage where martials overshadow casters?
Do you believe that this is a problem in the game overall, and where do you think the balance lies between casters and martials for the other aspects of the game such as discovery, travel, social interaction, area damage, inflicting conditions etc?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Not the same guy but: paladins.

Exploration: spells (quite a few handy divinations on the paladin list) and a mount, which adds an extra perception roll. The high save mods make them good at dealing with hazards, by pushing through them.

Social: high charisma usually coupled with good social standing. Paladins are champions of good and everyone knows it. Jives well with the more prestigious backgrounds like noble, soldier, and acolyte.

Combat: Divine Smite and Aura of Protection.

Not so hot at ranged encounters or dealing positively with the underworld, but it's fun to let other people shine sometimes.

Incidentally, also immune to cantrip nerfing.

I'm a little confused. You're defining the paladin as a martial, in the context of a martials vs casters question, but almost every point you bought up relates to the paladin's spells, spellcasting ability etc.

 

[the_redbeard]

A couple of years ago (was it that long? damn) I ran a campaign that limited cantrips. I'm restarting one soon (had a session zero this past week). It lasted 10 session before my work schedule killed it. While there were some players who decided that the campaign was not for them, all of the players that started the campaign wanted to continue. The limitation was a consideration for the spell casters - every cantrip cast was a bit of a choice.

I run a very different game than standard 5e and I was completely fine with some potential players deciding this is not for them. But the game context for limiting cantrips was:
1. No experience from combat
2. Experience is from gold recovered and spent on non-advancement (carousing, philanthropy,bling,etc)
3. Encumbrance is simplified but strictly enforced (you need to be able to carry out that loot)
4. 1st Short rest lasted 10 min. The 2nd, 30 min. The 3rd (and final), 1 hour. (Rests also consumed food and water - back to that encumbrance issue).
5. Random encounter/hazard rolls every 10 minutes. (A random encounter only occurs on a 1 in 6, but other die rolls use up resources, environmental changes can occur, etc.)

The world itself was relatively low magic. Non-classed NPCs had access to rituals that were the main source of magical power mainly through saints, relics, etc.

Non-combat challenges and creative solutions to avoid combat were much more the focus. So it wasn't the damage cantrips that were the problem, but the utility cantrips that trivialized some challenges. And I'm OK with magic trivializing a challenge - that's what magic is for. But it should cost a resource; just like a non-magic solution may likely cost equipment, magic should be a resource that requires a thoughtful choice before it is expended.

I care more about niche protection than I do about balance. In a problem solving game that is less about your character sheet but your contribution to solving the problem the party is facing balance is less of an issue.

So here were my cantrip house rules:
CHANGES TO CANTRIPS
LIMITED AND UNLIMITED CANTRIPS

• In general cantrips are no longer unlimited.
• A spell caster now has Cantrip “slots” equal to their Proficiency Modifier plus their Spellcasting Attribute modifier. These are refreshed on a short rest.
• A spell caster can exchange a 1st level spell slot for their proficiency modifier (only) in Cantrip slots.

* Some spell casters (warlocks) may choose 1 unlimited cantrip that they can cast unlimited
times. They may only switch this choice of cantrip when they gain a level.
* Wizards may record cantrips in their spell books and switch out their prepared cantrips
during their Arcane Study.
* Any spell caster may substitute an Ability Score Increase to declare one of their cantrips
unlimited. A spell caster could forgo their initial increase to their spell casting attribute to
begin play with an unlimited cantrip.
* Unlimited cantrips can only be switched when the character gains a level.
CONCENTRATION
The following cantrips have concentration added to their
duration:
Light
Mage Hand
Message
Minor Illusion
These cantrips already required concentration:
Dancing Lights
Friends
Resistance
True Strike

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm a little confused. You're defining the paladin as a martial, in the context of a martials vs casters question, but almost every point you bought up relates to the paladin's spells, spellcasting ability etc.

I think that you are looking at it the wrong way, but first it is at will and single target. The spread alone is not the problem so much as something that illustrates the problem's scale.
Monster design, non damage spell design and so on are all largely pegged to the faulty white room idea where A: martial will never have "magic" weapons & B: the dmg249(?) estimated number of targets per aoe are both present and politely lined up for optimal targeting. A & B combined causes severe problems due to how easy and strongly recommended by wotc it is to invalidate A early & often with any form of inexpensive "magic" weapon. Once A is invalidated all of the non damage spells (buff debuff control etc) are now wrongly timed to a gigantic degree and there is really no way of correcting that. Adding insult to injury wotc has setup a situation were "obviously there must be reasons because lfqw would be bad" is both implied and frequently accepted common knowledge so even bringing up the idea of correcting the dial on the other spells design elements comes off skin to angel summoner demanding bmx biker unlock his full angel summoning powers thanks to wotc providing no easy solution to correct things after taking their own advice to be "generous" with magic weapons.