WOIN Capping Your Dice Pool

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
The capping of a dice pool applies ONLY to the process of forming a pool with an ATTRIBUTE + SKILL + GEAR*. It does not apply to any other type of roll, such as damage, rolling for HEALTH, or anything else which isn’t forming a pool with an ATTRIBUTE + SKILL + GEAR.

Note that this DOES include DEFENCES, as these are calculated by forming a pool with an ATTRIBUTE + SKILL + GEAR.

The process is as follows:
  1. Form your dice pool by forming a pool with an ATTRIBUTE + SKILL + GEAR.
  2. Cap it.
  3. Apply anything else.**

*GEAR (or equipment) refers specifically to the gear quality dice pool contribution (high, exceptional, artisanal, etc.) not to any miscellaneous bonuses mentioned in its description.
**This includes LUC dice, exploits, positional modifiers, aim/feint, complications, miscellaneous bonuses, and anything else which is literally part of the initial forming a pool with an ATTRIBUTE + SKILL + GEAR.
 
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BlckKnght

Explorer
Can you clarify if the GEAR pool you describe is only the dice from the quality level of the gear (High-Quality, Exceptional, Mastercraft, etc...) or if it includes other dice that are specific to the type of item? For instance, camouflaged armor gives a +1d6 to checks to hide in appropriate terrain. Is that extra d6 part of the GEAR bucket and so subject to the cap, or is it in the "anything else" bucket that gets added after the cap?

I'm pretty sure it's not capped (or stuff like the invisibility cloak in NEW would be mostly useless), but it would be good to confirm that. Perhaps the GEAR bucket should be renamed "GEAR QUALITY" to be more specific.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Can you clarify if the GEAR pool you describe is only the dice from the quality level of the gear (High-Quality, Exceptional, Mastercraft, etc...) or if it includes other dice that are specific to the type of item? For instance, camouflaged armor gives a +1d6 to checks to hide in appropriate terrain. Is that extra d6 part of the GEAR bucket and so subject to the cap, or is it in the "anything else" bucket that gets added after the cap?

I'm pretty sure it's not capped (or stuff like the invisibility cloak in NEW would be mostly useless), but it would be good to confirm that. Perhaps the GEAR bucket should be renamed "GEAR QUALITY" to be more specific.

Yes, quality. The pool is literally the basic dice pool you include from an attribute + equipment + gear. Everything else, such as misc bonuses, is applied after capping.
 

BlckKnght

Explorer
Right, my point is about the terminology. If you say that "gear" dice go into the basic pool, that makes it seem like all bonus dice from gear might be included. That's why I'd suggest you emphasize "gear quality" instead of just "gear". Normal gear don't give dice of either sort, so for a new player there's not much to learn from.
 


1000buffalo

Explorer
The way I read it is that you have to reduce (if needed) to that base dice cap (for characters who can somehow gather a pool larger than their cap in Step 1) before you can trade off attack dice to damage (say). That is, a Grade 5 PC who gathers 7 dice in an attack pool can't put two of them (the two over their dice cap) towards additional damage.

Has anyone played with an option of letting Players use the dice over their dice cap towards damage, etc. and keeping the dice cap strictly on # rolled ... that is, if you can gather 7 dice for a Grade 5 PC, you can trade those excess dice towards an effect.
 

Dreist

Villager
So, say you were capped at 5 dice, but had the attributes and skills to use 6 dice, however you had to improvise your equipment (-2 dice). Since the cap is AFTER you apply attributes and skills, that would mean you roll 4 dice, right?
 

1000buffalo

Explorer
So, say you were capped at 5 dice, but had the attributes and skills to use 6 dice, however you had to improvise your equipment (-2 dice). Since the cap is AFTER you apply attributes and skills, that would mean you roll 4 dice, right?
I think your example is the rules-as-written. The pool would be 6 dice less 2 equipment dice (the -2 improv ) = 4, which is under the dice pool cap.

I'm thinking of something where Skills + Attributes + Gear = 6 or more dice on a 5 Dice Cap, and the GM allows the "excess" dice to go somewhere else. For example, 7 dice pool before Dice Cap, and allowing the 2 Attack Dice (otherwise lost by the Dice Cap) to provide +1d damage if the attack roll is successful. They still are only rolling 5 dice to hit, but feel a benefit of the "lost dice" on attack.
 

Dreist

Villager
I think your example is the rules-as-written. The pool would be 6 dice less 2 equipment dice (the -2 improv ) = 4, which is under the dice pool cap.

I'm thinking of something where Skills + Attributes + Gear = 6 or more dice on a 5 Dice Cap, and the GM allows the "excess" dice to go somewhere else. For example, 7 dice pool before Dice Cap, and allowing the 2 Attack Dice (otherwise lost by the Dice Cap) to provide +1d damage if the attack roll is successful. They still are only rolling 5 dice to hit, but feel a benefit of the "lost dice" on attack.
My question was unrelated to yours, I was just wanting to clarify something separately, that said, I do have some thoughts on your question:
I think that would be a somewhat unbalancing element. The point of the cap is to avoid overspecialization/min-maxing, and to keep a certain relative power level. Using the excess dice to buy things would be a bit much. Trading accuracy for power is a core part of the game, but there is no trade-off with that method, just more power. It removes the fun of thinking over the balance of accuracy vs damage, and heavily incentivizes specialization that the cap system is in place to curb.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
So, say you were capped at 5 dice, but had the attributes and skills to use 6 dice, however you had to improvise your equipment (-2 dice). Since the cap is AFTER you apply attributes and skills, that would mean you roll 4 dice, right?
That’s correct. You form your attribute + skill + equipment dice pool before capping it.
 

TheHirumaChico

Explorer
I think your example is the rules-as-written. The pool would be 6 dice less 2 equipment dice (the -2 improv ) = 4, which is under the dice pool cap.

I'm thinking of something where Skills + Attributes + Gear = 6 or more dice on a 5 Dice Cap, and the GM allows the "excess" dice to go somewhere else. For example, 7 dice pool before Dice Cap, and allowing the 2 Attack Dice (otherwise lost by the Dice Cap) to provide +1d damage if the attack roll is successful. They still are only rolling 5 dice to hit, but feel a benefit of the "lost dice" on attack.
This doesn't answer your question, but I would note that according to the official Errata, attack dice can now be traded for damage dice at a 1:1 ratio instead of 2:1.

In my game, I do not allow dice in excess of the cap to be spent on damage or other buffs/exploits. I think the point of the cap is to keep PCs and their opponents roughly on par in terms of MDP, and so allowing the over-cap dice to be repurposed would seem to violate the general intention of the MDP. That's just my interpretation, but as Morrus often says, "it's your game, do it whichever way you prefer."
 

1000buffalo

Explorer
This doesn't answer your question, but I would note that according to the official Errata, attack dice can now be traded for damage dice at a 1:1 ration instead of 2:1.
Oh, thanks - I'd missed that!

In my game, I do not allow dice in excess of the cap to be spent on damage or other buffs/exploits. I think the point of the cap is to keep PCs and their opponents roughly on par in terms of MDP, and so allowing the over-cap dice to be repurposed would seem to violate the general intention of the MDP. That's just my interpretation, but as Morrus often says, "it's your game, do it whichever way you prefer."
I think you're probably right re: the dice cap, but I may play with it a little. I'm not overly worried about balance.
 

MacD

Just a tourist passing your way...
This doesn't answer your question, but I would note that according to the official Errata, attack dice can now be traded for damage dice at a 1:1 ratio instead of 2:1.

In my game, I do not allow dice in excess of the cap to be spent on damage or other buffs/exploits. I think the point of the cap is to keep PCs and their opponents roughly on par in terms of MDP, and so allowing the over-cap dice to be repurposed would seem to violate the general intention of the MDP. That's just my interpretation, but as Morrus often says, "it's your game, do it whichever way you prefer."
Wait... Is it RAW to spend dice before capping the dice pool?

I handle spending dice as "modifiers" that apply after capping the dice pool.
Using lost dice as bonus damage would... change everything!
Equipment quality would be useful for skilled characters, for example...

Which way is the right one?
 


Evil_DM

Chris
Can you clarify if the GEAR pool you describe is only the dice from the quality level of the gear (High-Quality, Exceptional, Mastercraft, etc...) or if it includes other dice that are specific to the type of item? For instance, camouflaged armor gives a +1d6 to checks to hide in appropriate terrain. Is that extra d6 part of the GEAR bucket and so subject to the cap, or is it in the "anything else" bucket that gets added after the cap?

I'm pretty sure it's not capped (or stuff like the invisibility cloak in NEW would be mostly useless), but it would be good to confirm that. Perhaps the GEAR bucket should be renamed "GEAR QUALITY" to be more specific.

As with toolkits, you could also argue that if you do not wear proper camouflage clothing, you get -1D6 or -2D6 is you try a stealth check. If you try to stealth in a business suit for example, it will give you penalties (unless you try to blend into a crowd).

A generic camouflage uniform would allow you to stealth without penalties, where a very tailored camouflage uniform (arctic camo in an arctic environment) would grant a +1D6. At least, that's how we play it.
 

MacD

Just a tourist passing your way...
As with toolkits, you could also argue that if you do not wear proper camouflage clothing, you get -1D6 or -2D6 is you try a stealth check. If you try to stealth in a business suit for example, it will give you penalties (unless you try to blend into a crowd).

A generic camouflage uniform would allow you to stealth without penalties, where a very tailored camouflage uniform (arctic camo in an arctic environment) would grant a +1D6. At least, that's how we play it.
So that´s how you got your name :devilish: :ROFLMAO:
 

Evil_DM

Chris
As an addendum, after playing to what I would call a fairly high level party (grade 14), we've found that Exceptional Quality Gear is not necessarily rewarding for those players who have invested in their skill.

Example in part, a good rogue'ish character with a stealth maxed (as befitting a rogue) would already roll her stealth at MDP (8D6). Once a perfectly fitting item for a rogue is found (for example, giving +2D6 bonus to stealth) we see in practice that this item goes to the none-rogue, since they benefit from it more, even though they have less affinity or investment in stealth. From a min-max perspective it is way more rewarding to create a sub-optimal character and max out by going for gear then it is to level your character fully according to your role (max ranks in attributes and relevant skill).

Other examples in the same party go for a social-skill based character (CHA 15 and all relevant skills at 6 ranks), a gunslinger (max AGI, pistols at 10 ranks), and so forth. So, any relevant treasure, instead of going to the character it fits, such as HQ clothing going to the socialite or a HQ pistol going to the gunslinger, now work as power-ups for the characters who have not maxed these skills.

With weapons you can mitigate this a bit by giving HQ+ items other bonuses, such as to damage, but basic skill increase bonuses are usually wasted on the characters they should fit best with, from a narrative point of view.

Edit: we solved this, by the way, by making a lot of weapons that are higher in damage, already the equivalent of HQ or higher and thus requiring ranks in the relevant skills. This also limits further upgrades, thereby making super-weapons fairly impossible to obtain. For example, the portable mini-gun is considered an Artisanal Quality weapon since it is hard to wield even for experienced soldiers.
 
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MacD

Just a tourist passing your way...
As an addendum, after playing to what I would call a fairly high level party (grade 14), we've found that Exceptional Quality Gear is not necessarily rewarding for those players who have invested in their skill.

Example in part, a good rogue'ish character with a stealth maxed (as befitting a rogue) would already roll her stealth at MDP (8D6). Once a perfectly fitting item for a rogue is found (for example, giving +2D6 bonus to stealth) we see in practice that this item goes to the none-rogue, since they benefit from it more, even though they have less affinity or investment in stealth. From a min-max perspective it is way more rewarding to create a sub-optimal character and max out by going for gear then it is to level your character fully according to your role (max ranks in attributes and relevant skill).

Other examples in the same party go for a social-skill based character (CHA 15 and all relevant skills at 6 ranks), a gunslinger (max AGI, pistols at 10 ranks), and so forth. So, any relevant treasure, instead of going to the character it fits, such as HQ clothing going to the socialite or a HQ pistol going to the gunslinger, now work as power-ups for the characters who have not maxed these skills.

With weapons you can mitigate this a bit by giving HQ+ items other bonuses, such as to damage, but basic skill increase bonuses are usually wasted on the characters they should fit best with, from a narrative point of view.

Edit: we solved this, by the way, by making a lot of weapons that are higher in damage, already the equivalent of HQ or higher and thus requiring ranks in the relevant skills. This also limits further upgrades, thereby making super-weapons fairly impossible to obtain. For example, the portable mini-gun is considered an Artisanal Quality weapon since it is hard to wield even for experienced soldiers.
Hi Chris,
I agree WOIN equipment boni rules are a bit weird; some aspects of the game feel made for low grade parties only (like character sheets doesn't contain much room for additional grade features...).

RAW you get two ways to reach your MDP - maxing attribute / skill (like every rpg) or learning broader skills and max out with gear.

In my current campaign (OLD high fantasy, grade 9) I add equipment boni after capping for MDP. Of course my players like it 😉 and I have to adjust enemy hp.
I also use quality like you, some trade lists don't contain "normal" or "high" quality items as they have their standarts (like my dwarven armorsmith guild the party sometimes work for). Also a Katana should never be less than mastercraft 😀
 

rasktril

First Post
In the rule book, when the pc (Sir Mandallan) makes an attack, receives 5d6 ((str 3d6 + swords 3d6) minus 1d6 because of cap). Picks up an exceptional sword (+1D6) and magical (+1d6) receives zero benefit. Or are the magical properties (+1d6) after the cap?
 

MacD

Just a tourist passing your way...
In the rule book, when the pc (Sir Mandallan) makes an attack, receives 5d6 ((str 3d6 + swords 3d6) minus 1d6 because of cap). Picks up an exceptional sword (+1D6) and magical (+1d6) receives zero benefit. Or are the magical properties (+1d6) after the cap?
I don't remember any magical item enhancement that adds to attack pools, but yes, boni from magic are added after capping the pool.

With WOIN, most the time you won't benefit from high quality items if your character is too specialized.
You get two options - build a broad character with hobby and knowledge skills or specialize to the point your sword skills are honed enough to fight with an ordinary stick without loss of performance.
 

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