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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8945306" data-attributes="member: 42582">So in these sentence you move from there is a predetermined relationship between G and the occurrence of some or other instance of A to G causes some predetermined instance of A. To me that seems a non-sequitur.I think AW aspires to have a predetermined relationship between gameplay and aesthetic value. The basic moves and the GM moves are intended to secure that relationship. But there is no predetermination of what the particular aesthetic value will be.In the first quoted paragraph, we shift from the player having no choice to the character's choices being subsumed into the GM's authorship. That also seems like a potential non-sequitur, or at least a recipe for stilted fiction where the character is obviously an author's expository vehicle.In respect of the second quoted paragraph, I would run a mile. Unless it was a one-shot with pregens that was refereed by a very skilled thespian GM. (I've played a few of those. They can be entertaining.) What am I the player bringing to that game? What is the point for me, the player? What makes it more probable that this GM will (i) have worthwhile aesthetic goals that (ii) they will achieve via the unlikely mechanism of RPGing, than the alternative: namely, that the known processes of a game like Apocalypse World or Burning Wheel will do what they were designed to do - that is, produce an aesthetic experience via the way they coordinate the efforts of the various game participants?I believe that this is false. Part of giving a character their full due is understanding when they try, and when they are too exhausted to do so. And this is something that a "gamestate" can contribute to - I'm thinking particularly of artha in Burning Wheel.I don't understand why the GM is not one of the players here.The way to give up control is to let the game's mechanics do their job. I'm not talking here about B/X mechanics, which will produce an aesthetic experience only by coincidence. I'm talking about AW, BW, etc.</blockquote>

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