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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8945735" data-attributes="member: 42582">[USER=85870]@innerdude[/USER]I don't have any video game experience to draw on to respond to that part of your reply to me. A thought on the other part:Thanks for saying nice things.My response is a bit tangential but I hope not totally tangential.I think that there is a view, among some (maybe many) RPGers that getting aesthetic value is hard, and that the sort of GM control you mentioned in your earlier post is the only way to do it.My view is that getting aesthetic value on a par with (say) The Ring Cycle or Lawrence of Arabia or Blade Runner is hard, because those are all in their different ways works of genius, among the best of their genres. Most groups playing AW/BW won't get to these levels - but nor will a GM's railroad.But if we dial down our expectations a bit, and - I think the next bit is very important - if we lean into the distinct value that an aesthetic experience can have for participant creators (like playing music with friends, or mucking about in one's own garden), then I think getting worthwhile aesthetic value is not hard.A clever thinker about RPGing once put it <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/narr_essay.html" target="_blank">this way</a>:"El Dorado" was coined by Paul Czege to indicate the impossibility of a 1:1 Simulationist:Narrativist blend . . . I think some people who claim to desire such a goal in play are simply looking for Narrativism with a very strong Explorative chassis, and that the goal is not elusive at all. Such "Vanilla Narrativism" is very easy and straightforward. The key to finding it is to stop reinforcing Simulationist approaches to play. Many role-players . . . exhaust themselves by seeking El Dorado, racing ever faster and farther, when all they have to do is stop running, turn around, and find Vanilla Narrativism right in their grasp.I think many RPGers, if they let go of their "what ifs" (what if a player brings in the wrong sort of PC? declares the wrong sort of action? doesn't follow my hook? wants to change some detail of the game world? what if I can't think of something to say? don't have the NPC's responses already prepared? haven't planned how the adventure is going to turn out?), can easily create aesthetic value through relatively low-prep, relatively low-key play. I've done it in AD&D. I don't think it can be that hard to emulate it in 5e D&D. Obviously I think there are RPG systems that will make it easier than those two, but they're not essential. I think the core is being willing to let those "what ifs" go.</blockquote>

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