Case Study: Wraithstrike

[boolean]

Why bother with the rogue level and UMD?

Make it a cleric, with one of the domains from FR that gets True Strike as a 1st level domain spell. Add Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell), and you don't even need prep time.

 

[Pinotage]

That just means that the minis handbook is wrong, Pinotage.

Somehow you saying this doesn't surprise me at all! It is, however, primary source on swift actions.

Pinotage

 

[Pinotage]

That agrees with the rules for potions (though potions aren't spell trigger or spell completion) and with the rules for wands (assuming a spell with a casting time not more than a standard action) but not with the rules for scrolls that appear in the DMG.

Should one assume that this passage overrides the section in the DMG for long casting times? Does a scroll of Summon Monster now take a standard action too, since the Mini HB says so?

If you concede that the first statement isn't entirely true, why should the second statement enjoy the presumption of total accuracy?

-Hyp.

First, just note that the text I quoted was from memory - it's not a word for word copy of what's actually written in the MiniHB, so I might've excluded something. I think, for example, that the first section does mention potions as well as spell completion and spell trigger items.

Like I said, I think the first sentence is clearly not entirely true in that it contradicts the DMG on long casting times for scrolls.

However, the MiniHB was the first to introduce Swift Actions, and the second sentence clearly states that even a swift action scroll should be a standard action. I'd call that additional information beyond what the DMG says, a special case if you will.

In the old end you can make of it what you will. I see what you're saying - the first sentence is in error, so can we trust the second sentence. My opinion is that since the second sentence brings up new rules, there's no reason to say its invalid. Unless, of course, you simply don't like the rule.

Pinotage

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

That agrees with the rules for potions (though potions aren't spell trigger or spell completion) and with the rules for wands (assuming a spell with a casting time not more than a standard action) but not with the rules for scrolls that appear in the DMG.

Should one assume that this passage overrides the section in the DMG for long casting times? Does a scroll of Summon Monster now take a standard action too, since the Mini HB says so?

If you concede that the first statement isn't entirely true, why should the second statement enjoy the presumption of total accuracy?

-Hyp.

Well, is the Miniatures Handbook the primary source for rules that deal with Swift actions? It is the earliest source AFAIK, so it stands to reason that it is the primary source, or at least takes precedence over the DMG since no mention of swift actions appear in that book. If so, then Swift actions are at least called out as being an exception to the rule in the DMG, and so don't necessarily contradict it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, is the Miniatures Handbook the primary source for rules that deal with Swift actions? It is the earliest source AFAIK, so it stands to reason that it is the primary source, or at least takes precedence over the DMG since no mention of swift actions appear in that book. If so, then Swift actions are at least called out as being an exception to the rule in the DMG, and so don't necessarily contradict it.

So does a scroll of Quickened Magic Missile take a free action or a standard action?

If you're using Core rules, it's a free action. If you're using the Mini HB and you've retrofitted the Swift action rules to apply to Quickened spells, it's a standard action?

-Hyp.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

So does a scroll of Quickened Magic Missile take a free action or a standard action?

If you're using Core rules, it's a free action. If you're using the Mini HB and you've retrofitted the Swift action rules to apply to Quickened spells, it's a standard action?

-Hyp.

Actually, that sounds about right. The issue is whether you actually retroactively turn Quickened Magic Missile into a swift action. The rules for swift actions call them out as exceptions, so the Swift effects that appear qua swift effects are a standard action to cast from a scroll, and so would Quickened Magic Missile be if it gets turned into a swift action. Of course, the issue then becomes, can the Miniatures Handbook trump the PHB on the subject of Quickened Magic Missile's action type, even if it is the primary source on swift actions, because it certainly isn't the primary source for Quicken Spell. The answer seems to be "no," but a ruling of "yes" wouldn't cause any consistency problems, only problems of agreement with the PHB sections that get replaced/deleted by the ruling. And since they're being replaced/deleted...

So by the RAW, and respecting the primacy of the various rules sources, a scroll of Quickened Magic Missile is a free action, but a scroll of Swift Fly is a standard action.

An erratum specifying the retrofit would solve the problem... I don't expect that it is forthcoming.