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<blockquote data-quote="kigmatzomat" data-source="post: 9210478" data-attributes="member: 9254">Except 5e creatures have so many more hit points. So. Many. More.&nbsp; The &quot;bounding box&quot; philosophy means AC is constrained more, so HP is generally cranked up.&nbsp; And if HP goes up, the effectiveness of fireball goes down.Let's take a common fireball target example: troll.&nbsp; A 1e &amp; 2e troll was 33hp (hd6+6), 3e was 68hp (6d8+36) and a 5e troll is 84hp (8d10 + 40).That 1e fireball is ~50% of hp, the 5e fireball is 33%.It's not n apples-to-apples comparison even if they are both called hit points. Let's consider a prime magic missile target: kobolds.&nbsp; Kobolds in 5e have 5hp (2d6-2) vs ODD 2.5hp (1/2 d8)So each od&amp;d magic missile can slay a kobold while it takes two 5e missiles.&nbsp; So at 1st level, 5e slays 1, injures another while the ODD slays one.&nbsp; Then at 6th level the ODD slays 3 while an upcast-as-3rd slays 2 and injures a 3rd.&nbsp; At 11th ODD slays 5 while upcast-as-5th slays 3 and injures a 4th.Lets go back to the troll, it's 14% of an 1e troll at 1st level or 12% of a 5e troll with a 1st level caster. Now scale up. 6th level ODD caster does ~13hp (40%) while a 6th level 5e caster using a 3rd level spell slot does 17hp (20%).&nbsp; Up to 11th level, ODD caster ~22hp (66%) and 5e caster using a 5th slot does 24hp (30%)16th level?&nbsp; ODD 32hp/95% vs 5e 35hp/40%.&nbsp; And the&nbsp; 5e caster is using an 8th level slot.&nbsp; Well, probably not as there's likely something better but still, scaling example of an ODD caster eseentially slaying an uninjured troll with a 1st level spell slot which is simply un-possible in 5e.You can't look at rules in a vacuum.I have had campaigns in 1e, 2e and 3e edition reach 20+ and in 5e we're at 15.&nbsp; (I skipped 4e, life got in the way for several years)&nbsp; So I consider tier 4 rules quite relevant.&nbsp; I would be fine skipping tier 1, to be honest.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="kigmatzomat, post: 9210478, member: 9254"] Except 5e creatures have so many more hit points. So. Many. More. The "bounding box" philosophy means AC is constrained more, so HP is generally cranked up. And if HP goes up, the effectiveness of fireball goes down. Let's take a common fireball target example: troll. A 1e & 2e troll was 33hp (hd6+6), 3e was 68hp (6d8+36) and a 5e troll is 84hp (8d10 + 40). That 1e fireball is ~50% of hp, the 5e fireball is 33%. It's not n apples-to-apples comparison even if they are both called hit points. Let's consider a prime magic missile target: kobolds. Kobolds in 5e have 5hp (2d6-2) vs ODD 2.5hp (1/2 d8) So each od&d magic missile can slay a kobold while it takes two 5e missiles. So at 1st level, 5e slays 1, injures another while the ODD slays one. Then at 6th level the ODD slays 3 while an upcast-as-3rd slays 2 and injures a 3rd. At 11th ODD slays 5 while upcast-as-5th slays 3 and injures a 4th. Lets go back to the troll, it's 14% of an 1e troll at 1st level or 12% of a 5e troll with a 1st level caster. Now scale up. 6th level ODD caster does ~13hp (40%) while a 6th level 5e caster using a 3rd level spell slot does 17hp (20%). Up to 11th level, ODD caster ~22hp (66%) and 5e caster using a 5th slot does 24hp (30%) 16th level? ODD 32hp/95% vs 5e 35hp/40%. And the 5e caster is using an 8th level slot. Well, probably not as there's likely something better but still, scaling example of an ODD caster eseentially slaying an uninjured troll with a 1st level spell slot which is simply un-possible in 5e. You can't look at rules in a vacuum. I have had campaigns in 1e, 2e and 3e edition reach 20+ and in 5e we're at 15. (I skipped 4e, life got in the way for several years) So I consider tier 4 rules quite relevant. I would be fine skipping tier 1, to be honest. [/QUOTE]

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