Casters vs Mundanes in your experience

[Savage Wombat]

Well, that's the point then. It is perfectly possible to choose to play a character that is as effective as you can make it, without playing the single most effective combo you know over and over again.

 

[Steely_Dan]

False choice. I don't want the game to be broken, but I don't want every class to be AEDU either. I also don't want every class to be Vancian, or every class to be mana-based or power-point based, or any other single mechanic.

Well that was a nice thing about 3rd Ed (especially the latter days), a plethora of different class mechanics (Vancian, power points, essentia/incarnum, truename, pact, warlocks, shadow magic, ToB classes, auras etc).

I like the idea of balance, but not when it equals homogenisation of all classes.

 

[keterys]

The latter days of 4e have a lot of that diversity, too, when you get down to it (Essentials, psionics, monks, vampires, etc). Rough start, though.

That is to say, it's very easy to avoid "everybody has the same AEDU powers" in 4e if that's what you're looking to do. Though, yes, there are no "You're all dailies all the time" Vancian - because that's inherently imbalanced The Essentials Mage, though, has a spellbook, you get to pick all your stuff, it's actually a very nice approach to Vancian - and it has the slayer and thief so folks can compare against and feel like the mage really is the more magical one, if that's one of your restrictions.

I can only imagine what 4e might have looked like given another 5 years like 3e had to find the latter day tome of battles, arcanum, truenames, etc. Heck, I just wanted an Unearthed Arcana (3e-style, big book of cool house rules)

 

[Neonchameleon]

So I believe what Elf Witch is trying to say is that she (assuming female sry) mixes and matches her spells everytime she plays a spell caster - its not so much as she is choosing worse off spells for her caster.
I mean do you build your bard the same way everytime? Surely you've recognised a great way to optimise your bard for combat, but I'm guessing you dont design the same combat-great bard for every campaign?

I pretty much wrote the book back in the day on ways to play the bard. And they almost all end up with a highly-overlapping equipment list even if they don't share a single spell. A no-brainer is that every character who can use a wand of Cure Light Wounds probably should. But deeper is that bards always end up in a Chain Shirt, normally a Mithral one* - and a Mithral buckler or small shield (this isn't quite as silly as the fact that a smart wizard with decent cashflow will almost inevitably buy a +1 Mithral Twilight Chain Shirt if they can - and possibly also a Mithral Buckler)

The reason not to pick a strong solid loadout of combat spells is if I want a specialist combatant when that's what I'll spend the time tweaking. Or if I'm going to be antisocial and do nothing useful in combat.

* Possibly a Mithral Breastplate at mid-high levels for the most tightly combat focussed builds.

I like the idea of balance, but not when it equals homogenisation of all classes.

I like the idea of lack of homogenisation of classes but not when it breaks balance.

 

[Steely_Dan]

I like the idea of lack of homogenisation of classes but not when it breaks balance.

This is not a competition; though part of me wants to tell you, and will, D&D is not Crazy-Ball.

 

[Surmos]

I like the idea of lack of homogenisation of classes but not when it breaks balance.

^ I would +1 this if my phone wasn't freaking out.

 

[Hussar]

Well, that's the point then. It is perfectly possible to choose to play a character that is as effective as you can make it, without playing the single most effective combo you know over and over again.

Like you say, that's the point.

But, with the wizard, just about EVERY choice you make puts you head and shoulders above the muggle classes.

I mean, even if I take no direct combat spells whatsoever. Focus solely on divination the the absolute exclusion of every other school, I'm still breaking the game. If there's any sort of mystery in the game, I'm resolving it.

But, that's a wizard that no one would want to play. The whole point of a wizard is versatility isn't it? But, the trick is, the versatility comes at virtually no cost. I can be the All Knowing Answer Man one day, and Crush the City, the next.

I mean, it's not too hard to point out. Which would your 15th level party rather face, a 17th level fighter or a 17th level wizard? Would you say that they are even remotely on par as opponents?

So, why would they be on par as PC's?

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Let's say that you are bound and determined to play 3E at around 15th level, have a wizard, druid, and cleric in a large party, and none of those characters are going to notably overshadow anyone else, at least most of the time. We'll allow room for occasional slip ups, on the grounds that the players are not so mechancially savvy that they won't accidently pick an overpowering option.

After you muck around a bit, one of the first things this group is going to do is have those three casters start picking buff spells that they can use on the fighter, rogue, barbarian, paladin, etc. Then they will use them heavily. Given avoidance of some of the more overpowering spells, along with these buffs, in course of play, the other characters will be effective. A hasted, flying fighter can be impressive, especially once the cleric has gotten in his enhancements too. A rogue with improved invisibility and all the other things those casters can lay on him is certainly fun.

So the most obvious way to circumvent the issue, by average gamers of good will, is to go max on the "buffs that need a spreadsheet to keep straight" route? That's just pitiful.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This is not a competition; though part of me wants to tell you, and will, D&D is not Crazy-Ball.

No it's not a competition. Which i sprecisely why forcing people into the shade accidently is such a bad thing.

So the most obvious way to circumvent the issue, by average gamers of good will, is to go max on the "buffs that need a spreadsheet to keep straight" route? That's just pitiful.

And that's before someone throws a Greater Dispel Magic.

 

[Steely_Dan]

Which i sprecisely why forcing people into the shade accidently is such a bad thing.

That sounds a bit sinister (though, interesting), what do you mean?