casting "beyond your abilities"?

[Kahuna Burger]

As a DM, I've toyed with several ideas for letting characters cast spells that would normally be beyond their abilities. Under the core rules, the safe way to to this seems to be using ritual magic to extend the casting time by a lot, throw in some additional xp or expensive material costs, etc. So if a moderate level druid really really needs a major storm and knows when in advance, she can bring it about (this example was used "off camera" in one of my campaigns.)

But with Elements of Magic (or psionics, really) a more dramatic way of going beyond your limits presents itself. You can't use metamagic feats to raise a spell level above what you can normally cast. Well, why not? A 6th level spellcaster can only cast up to 3rd level spells, but has enough magic points to theoretically let loose with one of those spells metamagiced up to 9th level. Or even beyond, making it possible to metamagic higher level spells which normally wait for "epic" levels.

Now, by no means am I saying this should be free. Game balance aside, it could get silly very quickly. But from a story view, why can't you use all your magic points in one blow? Well, you're chanelling those magical energies through your body. So narrative logic, game balance and a need for drama all indicate that casting above your limit should incur damage, possible long term health consequences, even a lowered limit on your 'channeling' ability due to burnout.

Does anyone already have house rules for this sort of thing? Are there standard or optional rules in EoM that I just missed? Any thoughts?

Kahuna Burger

 

[Nail]

Scrolls. A low level caster has an excellent chance of casting a higher level spell with a scroll.

 

[thullgrim]

In my game we switched over to a skill based casting spell point system. I allow overcasting both as a result of meta-magic feats and simply casting higher than normally available spells. The DC to cast these spells is higher, and the spell point requirement is a little high, and failure is downright nasty as well. All in all I think my players like the flexibility it allows. I know the cleric has done it a time or two to help the party out alot. Also my NPC's do it so it all balances out.

 

[The Souljourner]

I actually have a character in a campaign with the ability to do something just like this. She can metamagic spells above her normal castable level, but they they take up spell levels equal to 50% more than normal. For example, she's 12th level and thus can cast 6th level spells. She could metamagic a spell up to 10th level, but it would cost 15 spell levels to cast, using up 2 6th level slots and a 3rd level slot.

The problem with this, is that it really allows the caster to do ridiculous things. I calculated once that I could do something on the order of 500 damage in one fell swoop. That's just too much.

Perhaps if you made it cost XP, I could see it... but the problem with making it cost XP is that it's a very fine line. Too much XP and it'll never get used, too little and it's ignorable.

Here's some guidelines that I think are a good idea -

I like the 50% extra cost for higher than normal spells.

Make sure they must use their highest level spell slots first - no using 5 2nd level spells to cast a 10th level fireball.

A small XP cost is probably in order... something like final level of the spell (including +50% modifier) squared... maybe times some constant depending on how often you want them to do it. That would mean a 9th level wizard casting a 6th level spell would have to pay 81*C xp (where C is the constant). For a 10th level spell 225*C xp.

Since this sounds like it needs to be spontaneous, consider making the casting time longer, either a full round or maybe even two full rounds.

It all depends on how good you want to make the ability. My DM changed it so I couldn't go above 9th level spell slots after I threw one too many 12th level spells

-The Souljourner

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Perhaps if you made it cost XP, I could see it... but the problem with making it cost XP is that it's a very fine line. Too much XP and it'll never get used, too little and it's ignorable.
...
Since this sounds like it needs to be spontaneous, consider making the casting time longer, either a full round or maybe even two full rounds.

I'm more inclined towards a physical cost than an XP one, myself. This is from both a game mechanics and narrative point of view. Mechanics wise, its a serious gamble in the middle of a battle to knock out a major damage spell, but risk going into negitive hp to do it. Narritively, its just too cool.

I was thinking something along the lines of make a fort save, dc based on how many levels/points you are going over your limit. Damage for failure (or halved on a save if you always want it to be nasty) could also be proportional to how far over your limit you're going. To make it really risky say that a failed save also gives a X% chance per level/point of permanently losing HP or some of your magical ability. (Ohhh, you just burned that 5th level spell slot right out of your cabablities... blew the fuse as it were...)

Of course once we're at that point, the next step pretty much has to be feats/PrCs to make overcasting safer. Its ineveitable.

Definitely a full round action would be in order. Taking longer (even to the point of ritual casting) could make it safer.... hmmm... crunchy bits beckon....

Kahuna Burger

 

[las]

heres an idea.

One they take a feat.

Overcasting [Metamagic]
You know how to overcast your spells.
Prerequisites: Con 15+, Consentration 8+ ranks, Knowledge (arcna) 8+ ranks, Spellcraft 8+ ranks.
Benefit: You can overcast your spells. You can increase the caster level up to half your caster level and add metamagic feats to spells but at a cost. When you overcast your spells you must make a Fort save vs. the save DC of your spell (if it dose not have a save make it vs. what it would have for its level). If you fail you take Con damage (Wich heals at the normel rate of one per day) for the level of the spell. If you do make your save you take HP damage equal to double the level of spell the metamagic feat would adgust it or 4x the level your trying to increase the spell in HP damage.

Thats gust off the top of my head so it neads to be worked out.

Then we can make more feats that could reduse some of the peneltys from trying to do it.

 

[thullgrim]

in my game when they fail a spell they get a fortitude save, failure means they lose a number con points equal to the adjusted level of the spell. It works out fairly well.

 

[Falcon]

In my campaign world, there are no wizards, only sorcerers and their blood-lines of magic. I have coppled together a spell-points system based mostly on that presented in AEG's "Magic"and the Wheel of Time's Overchanneling concept, with some modifications, of course. Sorcerers still can't cast a spell above their abilities, but they may attempt to go beyond their allotted points, with possible severe and permanent side-effects. I am at work right now and don't have the tables and schtuff I have developed, but if you look at WoT and "Magic," it might give you some ideas.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Overcasting [Metamagic]
You know how to overcast your spells.
Prerequisites: Con 15+, Consentration 8+ ranks, Knowledge (arcna) 8+ ranks, Spellcraft 8+ ranks.

I'd make the requirements any two metamagic feats. I'd want low con characters to be able to take it in spite of the risk (raistlen anyone?) and I think it fits better with instinctive spellcasters, so the knowlege and spellcraft seem out of place.

but the idea of it being a feat (or series of feats) definitly has promise.

I was thinking today about a series of "heroic feats". Like the ability to take a partial action out of initiative at the cost of being flatfooted till your next normal initiative, or a "blocking leap" to take the damage of a spell, trap or attack for someone. They wouldn't be for every campaign, but could add some serious flavor to a heroic one.

Kahuna Burger

 

[EvilMountainDew]

I have never done this in a campaign, its never seemed to be in order (I have a problem of letting PC's live... ) But I would probably go with making it cost a lil bit of EXP, a LOT of spells slots, (maybe all depending on the level).

I dont like the feats idea, It wouldn't take much for a wizard to take those feats and overcast and destroy everything until like 10th level... living a normal life for a little while (recuperate) and then venture off until become a deity....