Casting detectable when no V,S,M components?

[Artoomis]

This is a rules question. Strictly a rules question. On the other hand, I really don't care about dissecting some specific tiny point in the rules ad nauseum. On to the question:

Is there any specific provision within the rules for detecting when someone is casting a spell with no V,S or M components?

This should be the same as when someone is using any sort of spell-like (Sp) ability, right?

In favor: The act of casting the spell or using a spell-like ability provokes an AoO. The spell or spell-like ability can be interrupted using a readied action - if, indeed, it is possible to declare a readied action for this (that's the core question here).

Opposed: You cannot use Spellcraft against such a spell or spell-like ability as you cannot "see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components."

Of course, the mere fact that you cannot use spellcraft to identify the spell being used does NOT necessarily mean you cannot tell SOMETHING is going on.

Is there a ruling anywhere - core rules, errata, FAQ or any supplemental material (3.5 ed) that clearly states it is possible to ready an action to attempt to interrupt a spell with no V,S or M components or a spell-like ability (same thing, really)?

I am leaning towards thinking you could at least ready an action if your opponent appears to be concentrating on a non-obvious action - though it might turn out to be something other than a spell or Sp ability - possibly some Su or Ex ability.

I think there is no rule that says you cannot do this, but I also have not seen anything clearly stating you can.

I know this has been discussed before, but (1) I cannot search and (2) I think it may not have been discussed from this particular point of view.

Situation: We are being harassed by an Ogre-Mage. I am thinking a good tactic would be to have us each ready an action to attempt to stop him from using his powers - maybe we could interrupt the use of at least some of his powers and then we'd be able to fight him. I am getting tired of being hit by a Cone of Cold and then he turns invisible and flies away. Most annoying.

 

[Nifft]

Yes. The colorful magical arrow above the head of the caster flashes with exactly enough information to provide a Spellcraft check, which can identify the spell exactly as easily as it could any other spell.

-- N

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Is there a ruling anywhere - core rules, errata, FAQ or any supplemental material (3.5 ed) that clearly states it is possible to ready an action to attempt to interrupt a spell with no V,S or M components or a spell-like ability (same thing, really)?

Tome and Blood had this to say: "You can use Spellcraft to identify a spell even if the spell has no verbal, somatic, or material component--there's no mistaking the concentration magic requires. However, you must still be able to see or hear the spellcaster."

That was 3.0, of course. As far as I know, this ruling appears nowhere in 3.5 sources, and is specifically contradicted by the skill description, so I assume it is no longer valid (assuming that it ever was).

 

[Artoomis]

Yes. The colorful magical arrow above the head of the caster flashes with exactly enough information to provide a Spellcraft check, which can identify the spell exactly as easily as it could any other spell.

-- N

Um.... no, the Spellcraft spell specifically states the spell must be verbal and/or somatic to be able to identify the spell.

However, what I want to know is not if you can identify the spell (you can't; that's crystal clear), but if you can tell a spell is being cast. Not the same thing at all.

 

[Artoomis]

...there's no mistaking the concentration magic requires. ...

I wish there was a similar comment in 3.5 - even if it had nothing to do with Spellcraft.

 

[Nifft]

Tome and Blood had this to say: "You can use Spellcraft to identify a spell even if the spell has no verbal, somatic, or material component--there's no mistaking the concentration magic requires. However, you must still be able to see or hear the spellcaster."

That was 3.0, of course. As far as I know, this ruling appears nowhere in 3.5 sources, and is specifically contradicted by the skill description, so I assume it is no longer valid (assuming that it ever was).

Oops! Did that get changed? Sorry, then, for the misinformation.

-- N

 

[Daedrova]

SRD:
Spell-Like Abilities
A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component. A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

Even though the normal gestures (V,S,M) required are not being used for these spells, they are still not considered spell-like abilities, and therefore can still be countered (by using dispel magic or similar effects).

 

[Artoomis]

Even though the normal gestures (V,S,M) required are not being used for these spells, they are still not considered spell-like abilities, and therefore can still be countered (by using dispel magic or similar effects).

I am not really sure I understood your point. I guess you meant that spell-like abilities can not be counter-spelled while spells can be, even if they have no V,S or M component. Did I get that right?

While true, it does not help with my question of whether you can tell a spell is being cast (or a spell-like ability is being used) when there is no V,S or M component.

 

[Rkhet]

I think his point is that if it can be counterspelled, then it means you can ready an action against it, since you cannot counterspell otherwise.

And to trigger a readied action, you would need to notice the casting.

 

[Stalker0]

There was a thread on this not more than 2 weeks ago. Basically someone pointed out a FAQ reference that would indicate spells with no components act as SLA, and cannot be counterspelled.