Casting HOLD PERSON on someone FLYing

[rrealm]

1) If a Hold Person spell is cast on someone (and they fail the save)while they are under the effect of a Fly spell, do they:

A) feather fall straight down because they are no longer able to control the fly spell or
B) do they stay in the air hovering motionless since the fly spell is not actually dispelled?

2) What if the person lands in water and suddenly has the risk of drowning?

If you become held and suddenly fall into deep water, how long can you hold your breath? The rules say that you can hold your breath for twice your constitution score but is that provided that you can get a final big-gulp of air? If the "default" is 2xCon for sudden immersion, how much longer can you last if you get a full breath of air?

Since the character(s) would probably not get the chance to get a final big-gulp of air before they realize they are held, it might make a difference.



The reason I ask this is because my players are about to attack an island-like civilization containing many spellcasters. One of the most likely tactics the PCs will use is to fly above the water and hover while releasing spells or ranged attacks down on the enemy group which contains many mid level clerics.

To help things along:

From the SRD:

Fly
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3, Travel 3
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good. Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears.
Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends in this way if the fly spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field.
Arcane Focus: A wing feather from any bird.

Hold Person
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One humanoid creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D); see text
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)
A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can’t swim and may drown.
Arcane Focus: A small, straight piece of iron.

 

[ThoughtfulOwl]

1) Probably neither A nor B; AFAIK, fly just requires a small amount of concentration but no physical actions. The held character could just keep on (but could do little else).

2) Interesting conundrum; my suggestion would be either to start making Con checks immediately (a bit cruel) or to give half the usual time, i.e. Con instead of 2xCon. Another option might be to make an initiative check and then use that score as the number of rounds.

 

[Hypersmurf]

1) Probably neither A nor B; AFAIK, fly just requires a small amount of concentration but no physical actions. The held character could just keep on (but could do little else).

If Fly requires no physical action, why is it that someone who is wearing Medium armor can only fly at a speed 40, not 60, but the same person carrying the same armor in a sack can fly at full speed?

The restrictive effect of wearing the armor slows the person down (not its weight, but the fact that it is being worn)... which suggests that there must be a physical component to the flight.

It states that controlling the spell requires as much concentration as walking. It doesn't, however, say that no movement is required. After all, walking requires as much concentration as walking, and you can't do that while Held...

If wearing armor slows you down (which can only be due to its restriction of your ability to move freely, since the weight might be only a light load), then surely being paralyzed and unable to move at all must cause rather more difficulty?

-Hyp.

 

[Liquidsabre]

(B) They freeze in place. Spell is still functional (so they remain aloft), they just can't move.

 

[Li Shenron]

1) If a Hold Person spell is cast on someone (and they fail the save)while they are under the effect of a Fly spell, do they:

A) feather fall straight down because they are no longer able to control the fly spell or
B) do they stay in the air hovering motionless since the fly spell is not actually dispelled?

2) What if the person lands in water and suddenly has the risk of drowning?

If you become held and suddenly fall into deep water, how long can you hold your breath? The rules say that you can hold your breath for twice your constitution score but is that provided that you can get a final big-gulp of air? If the "default" is 2xCon for sudden immersion, how much longer can you last if you get a full breath of air?

1) It should be B, you are not flapping your arms when using a fly spell.

2) I'd make it simple and use always the default value. In general, I tend to consider defaults as the optimal case, so I'd rather give a penalty for sudden immersion than a bonus if you get a full breath, but I wouldn't really want to make it more difficult...

 

[Bauglir]

If Fly requires no physical action, why is it that someone who is wearing Medium armor can only fly at a speed 40, not 60, but the same person carrying the same armor in a sack can fly at full speed?

The restrictive effect of wearing the armor slows the person down (not its weight, but the fact that it is being worn)... which suggests that there must be a physical component to the flight.

It states that controlling the spell requires as much concentration as walking. It doesn't, however, say that no movement is required. After all, walking requires as much concentration as walking, and you can't do that while Held...

If wearing armor slows you down (which can only be due to its restriction of your ability to move freely, since the weight might be only a light load), then surely being paralyzed and unable to move at all must cause rather more difficulty?

-Hyp.

Besides, Hold Person is a compulsion not to move, not physical paralysis. Essentially it's a specialised Dominate Person, with the command "Do not move". To continue flying would be to move, even if you could do it while holding your limbs still.

 

[Li Shenron]

If Fly requires no physical action, why is it that someone who is wearing Medium armor can only fly at a speed 40, not 60, but the same person carrying the same armor in a sack can fly at full speed?

Yeah! Then how is it that wearing a shield confortably strapped to your left arm gives you arcane spell failure because of gestures with your right arm, while carrying even heavier and bulkier object doesn't?

The reason is just that the game ain't perfect, and the authors don't have the time to address every possible inconsistency or imprecision...

The restrictive effect of wearing the armor slows the person down (not its weight, but the fact that it is being worn)... which suggests that there must be a physical component to the flight.

It states that controlling the spell requires as much concentration as walking. It doesn't, however, say that no movement is required. After all, walking requires as much concentration as walking, and you can't do that while Held...

If wearing armor slows you down (which can only be due to its restriction of your ability to move freely, since the weight might be only a light load), then surely being paralyzed and unable to move at all must cause rather more difficulty?

I always support the DM's right to change what he doesn't like

 

[Chronosome]

Besides, Hold Person is a compulsion not to move, not physical paralysis. Essentially it's a specialised Dominate Person, with the command "Do not move". To continue flying would be to move, even if you could do it while holding your limbs still.

Agreed.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I always support the DM's right to change what he doesn't like

So they can houserule in "Fly around while held"?

Fair enough.

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

So they can houserule in "Fly around while held"?

Fair enough.

-Hyp.

But read back what you wrote in your post above... you added many things that aren't written anywhere. All you said makes very sense from a certain point of view, and I respect that as a DM you want to play that way, and for what matters I have done the same more than once. But you are adding a lot of implications that simply aren't part of the RAW, which is exactly the opposite of what you usually do on this board