D&D 5E Casting multiple spells with bonus spells and the order they are cast.

[Helldritch]

That's a great houserule, Helldritch, but please don't confuse people looking for RAW answers.

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So you say.

Remember: Specific beats out the general rule.

Nothing prevents you from using your reaction in the rule. You can not cast a spell when you cast a bonus action spell unless it is a cantrip with a casting time of one action. Shield and counterspell are reaction spells. They are not action spells. They do not use your "action" when you cast them. I really do not see the "house ruling" in there.

The intent of the rule is to prevent the double fireball, lightning bold, Ice storm etc.. with the sorcerer's ability of transforming an action spell into a bonus action spell. Action, Bonus action and Reaction are independant of each other.
A reaction is specific, it responds to a triggering event which does not happen all the time. In fact you can't take a reaction if there is no triggering event because you have nothing to react to. Because of the triggering requirement, you can't even cast shield as a prevention, you need to be victim of an attack or be targetted by a magic missile spell. You can't counterspell without having a spell to counter etc...

Specific beats out the general rule.
I.E. From sage advice
Can a bonus action be used as an action or vice versa? For example, can a bard use a bonus action to grant a Bardic Inspiration die and an action to cast healing word?
No. Actions and bonus actions aren’t interchangeable. In the example, the bard could use Bardic Inspiration or healing word on a turn, not both.

The same holds true for reaction.
It is unfortunate that the example on counter spell does not include this scenario

A sorcer cast a cantrip (fire bolt)
Then transform a fire ball into a bonus action spell.
Ennemy caster cast counter spell.
Can the sorcer counter the counter the counter spell?

I'd say yes. I believe that it is both raw and rai.
I wonder what WotC would say...

 

[CapnZapp]

So you say.

Remember: Specific beats out the general rule.

Nothing prevents you from using your reaction in the rule. You can not cast a spell when you cast a bonus action spell unless it is a cantrip with a casting time of one action. Shield and counterspell are reaction spells. They are not action spells. They do not use your "action" when you cast them. I really do not see the "house ruling" in there.

The intent of the rule is to prevent the double fireball, lightning bold, Ice storm etc.. with the sorcerer's ability of transforming an action spell into a bonus action spell. Action, Bonus action and Reaction are independant of each other.
A reaction is specific, it responds to a triggering event which does not happen all the time. In fact you can't take a reaction if there is no triggering event because you have nothing to react to. Because of the triggering requirement, you can't even cast shield as a prevention, you need to be victim of an attack or be targetted by a magic missile spell. You can't counterspell without having a spell to counter etc...

Specific beats out the general rule.
I.E. From sage advice
Can a bonus action be used as an action or vice versa? For example, can a bard use a bonus action to grant a Bardic Inspiration die and an action to cast healing word?
No. Actions and bonus actions aren’t interchangeable. In the example, the bard could use Bardic Inspiration or healing word on a turn, not both.

The same holds true for reaction.
It is unfortunate that the example on counter spell does not include this scenario

A sorcer cast a cantrip (fire bolt)
Then transform a fire ball into a bonus action spell.
Ennemy caster cast counter spell.
Can the sorcer counter the counter the counter spell?

I'd say yes. I believe that it is both raw and rai.
I wonder what WotC would say...

Sigh.

You go ahead and believe that.

I will certainly not debate you on it - the thread has already made the RAW abundantly clear.

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[jaelis]

Nothing prevents you from using your reaction in the rule. You can not cast a spell when you cast a bonus action spell unless it is a cantrip with a casting time of one action. Shield and counterspell are reaction spells. They are not action spells. They do not use your "action" when you cast them. I really do not see the "house ruling" in there.

I really do not understand your argument.

The spellcasting rule says that, if you cast a bonus action spell, you cannot cast another spell during your turn. One exception is made, a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

The type of action required to cast a non-cantrip spell is irrelevant. You cannot cast another non-cantrip spell during you turn, period. Even if there were a spell that took no action at all, you still couldn't cast it on that turn, because the prohibition against casting is based on the fact that it is a spell, not what type of action it requires.

So we have a blanket prohibition against casting, that is the general rule. The specific exception is for 1-action cantrips. If you want another specific exception, you would need a spell that specifically said "You can cast this, even if you also cast a bonus action spell on this turn."

I'd say yes. I believe that it is both raw and rai.
I wonder what WotC would say...

I cited Crawford on twitter above. Here's another convo:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/17/does-casting-a-bonus-action-spell-prevent-reaction-spells/

 

[DEFCON 1]

At the end of the day... isn't the real result we are all looking for is this? Just telling our caster player...

"No, you can't cast 2 fireballs on your turn."

Once you get past that, do any of us really care whether or not a sorcerer tries to counterspell a counterspell to their lighting bolt? Especially considering if you as a DM hate having your monsters' spells counterspelled that much you can simply put multiple casters in a fight so that there's always someone to counterspell a counterspell of a counterspell?

We DMs just don't want our spellcaster players dropping multiple damaging spells that make our melee players' efforts laughable by comparison each round. After that... don't let yourself get caught up in the trivialities.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I really do not understand your argument.

The spellcasting rule says that, if you cast a bonus action spell, you cannot cast another spell during your turn. One exception is made, a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

The type of action required to cast a non-cantrip spell is irrelevant. You cannot cast another non-cantrip spell during you turn, period. Even if there were a spell that took no action at all, you still couldn't cast it on that turn, because the prohibition against casting is based on the fact that it is a spell, not what type of action it requires.

So we have a blanket prohibition against casting, that is the general rule. The specific exception is for 1-action cantrips. If you want another specific exception, you would need a spell that specifically said "You can cast this, even if you also cast a bonus action spell on this turn."


I cited Crawford on twitter above. Here's another convo:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/17/does-casting-a-bonus-action-spell-prevent-reaction-spells/

Crawford's answer is another of his wonderfully vague possible half-answers. Her may or may not have reached the reaction spell, can't tell because the question was so muddled.

The argument for reaction spells trumping the bonus action casting restrictions are that those bonus action restrictions are part of what you can do on your turn. Reactions are not part of your turn, even if they can occur on your turn as a matter of timing. The bonus action restrictions are the specific exception to casting as an action. Reactions are a specific exception to the general rules of when you act in a round. The reaction specific exempts out of everything in the rules on what happens on your turn, including the bonus action restriction.

Like this:

When can you act?

General: on your turn
Exception: reactions

What can I do?

General (on your turn): during your turn, an action, a move, maybe a bonus action
Exception (on your turn): if you cast as spell as a bonus action, you can only cast 1 action cantrips if you cast as an action.

General(reactions): whatever the reaction who's trigger was tripped says.

Reactions are different things than what you can do on your turn. The bonus action specific exception is to what you do on your turn and doesn't extend to things you do that aren't part of your turn, like reactions.

 

[Helldritch]

I wholly agree with DEFCON 1,

Why should we be up our heels when a player tries to counter a counter?
After all, the only character able to do that is the sorcerer anyways. The sorcerer is already in a not so strong shape/position as it is that adding an insult to the injury isn't doing any good at this point.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I wholly agree with DEFCON 1,

Why should we be up our heels when a player tries to counter a counter?
After all, the only character able to do that is the sorcerer anyways. The sorcerer is already in a not so strong shape/position as it is that adding an insult to the injury isn't doing any good at this point.

Wizards and bards might if their misty step gets countered.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Wizards and bards might if their misty step gets countered.

If an enemy caster spends a 3rd level spell to counter the bard's 2nd level spell... the bard should consider than attrition of resources a net win.

 

[Ovinomancer]

If an enemy caster spends a 3rd level spell to counter the bard's 2nd level spell... the bard should consider than attrition of resources a net win.

If I'm trying to run it get somewhere to do an important thing quickly, denying mobility is a pretty big win for the other side. I can think of a few recent fights where misty step was pivotal to the fight for the players. A counterspell would have been bad for them there.

 

[CapnZapp]

Why should we be up our heels when a player tries to counter a counter?

Nobody is up our heels on anything.

Nobody's forcing you to run the game RAW.



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