Casting spells on a sleeping creature...
- Thread starter Arravis
- Start date
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drunkmoogle
First Post
They get all their saves as normal, excpet their dexterity mod for reflex saves is -5.
Personally, I don't grant reflex saves when you're helpless, but whatever.
Personally, I don't grant reflex saves when you're helpless, but whatever.
So far as I know you are definately allowed fort and will, without question.
I would also allow reflex saves, with an appropriate penalty, but there are a couple of reasons in the rules that point to disallowing it.
Still, the easy answer I see is: Fort and Will yes, reflex is up to the dm (but the rules are inclined to disallow it in some places, and not so much in others).
I would also allow reflex saves, with an appropriate penalty, but there are a couple of reasons in the rules that point to disallowing it.
Still, the easy answer I see is: Fort and Will yes, reflex is up to the dm (but the rules are inclined to disallow it in some places, and not so much in others).
Well... I normally would agree with you guys, but this article threw me off:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a
It states: "Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing..."
Hmm... any guesses?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a
It states: "Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing..."
Hmm... any guesses?
Otterscrubber
First Post
The thing about unconcious people being willing is also listed in the SRD under Aiming a Spell:
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
But this seems to be more about dealing with spells that require willing targets than whether or not they are still allowed saving throws to other types of spells while unconcious. I would still allow saving throws, but perhaps for reflex saves I would treat them as having a 0 dex. No rules to back this up that I can find, but it's what I would do.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
But this seems to be more about dealing with spells that require willing targets than whether or not they are still allowed saving throws to other types of spells while unconcious. I would still allow saving throws, but perhaps for reflex saves I would treat them as having a 0 dex. No rules to back this up that I can find, but it's what I would do.
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drunkmoogle
First Post
Considered Willing: Yes.
Denied Saves/Spell Resistance: No.
A willing creature usually decides to forfeit its saves... but can chose not to.
Note that most spells (possibly all, not looking it up) that require a willing target don't have a save or SR. So my point is moot.
Denied Saves/Spell Resistance: No.
A willing creature usually decides to forfeit its saves... but can chose not to.
Note that most spells (possibly all, not looking it up) that require a willing target don't have a save or SR. So my point is moot.
frankthedm
First Post
Arravis said:
Sounds like orcish logic
Kae'Yoss
First Post
The spells we're talking about usually have no saving throw, cause they must be put on a willing target, anyway. The matter of sleeping creatures is that they cannot choose, so either they're all affected without getting a saving throw, or they all get a saving throw against the effect (even though the spell doesn't grant one). The thing is: how will you distinguish between friendly "willing" characters or unfriendly ones? Will an unconscious friend be teleportet with you, the unconscious enemy won't?
drunkmoogle
First Post
Kae'Yoss said:
Well, if the spell doesn't grant a save, then it doesn't grant a save. In the example above, you can choose to target whoever you want.
I was just arguing a moot point. The creature isn't denied his save; he just doesn't get one with "willing" spells.
