[Castles and Crusades] Save or Die Madness

[Votan]

I just acquired a copy of Castles and Crusades (it has been a challenge). I was looking forward to reading it in detail and seeing how it would approximate the old school games of my youth. There are a lot of good ideas in C&C so I was very surprised to see the saving throw rules for spells.

In C&C you save based on an ability score with the base being 12, if favored, or 18, if not. To this base you add a challenge level. You add any attributed bonus to your level plus roll a d20 and try to exceed the challenge level.

Generally, humans have 3 primary attributes and non-humans have two.

So far, so good. Now, one of the nice features of older D&D editions was that high level characters almost always made saving throws. In C&C they are less likely to do so then in 3E D&D (where save or die was seen by me as a potential flaw).

Now, the authors did remove many of the true save or die spells but a few obvious examples remain: Hold Person and Finger of Death (for example).

Now the challenge rating for a spell is the caster's level (not the spell level).

So a 10th level character casts hold person on a 10th level opponent. The opponents saves on a base of 12 if it has wisdom as a primary stat and 18 otherwise. Best case scenario (18 or 19 wisdom) is a +3 to saves due to attribute bonuses. So a strong save character fails between 40 and 55% of the time while a weak save character fails between 70 and 85% of the time.

Wow! Spells never stop being extremely effective. Even low level save or XXX spells stay hyper-effective. At 13th level finger of death shows up (targeting Charisma).

I'd be surprised to see a 3E character having an 85% chance to fail a saving throw versus hold person. At it's peak (4th level) the character has alikely DC (with an elite array) of 10 + 2 (spell level) + 3 (wisdom) = 15 while a weak save target with a 10 stat has a total save bonus of +1 (65% chance to fail).

This can get a little crazy at high levels but the basic theme seems to be save or XXX magic has been carefully increased in potency (at all levels) for C&C.

Don;t get me wrong -- many of the ideas in C&C are really sharp. But I am curious how this works out in actual play? Was it a deliberate design decision?

Or did I misread the rules?

 

[Treebore]

Well, to make sure we are both clear on your example, they would save on a roll of 9 if their WIS is prime, and a 15 if non Prime.

Yeah, spells will always be dangerous in C&C, you will not see saves being made 80%+ of the time, especially when in relation to non prime saves. Now there is a chance, depending on how a given CK gives out magical treasure, that they may have a bonus to their saves from magical items. Then there is still the possible effects of Protection from Evil, Prayer, etc... So under optimal conditions the save rolls can be drastically improved.

Plus spell resistance is also far more effective in C&C as well. It only ranges from 1 to 20, and you get no adds, except if you have a Robe of the Archmagi, which gives you a +2.

 

[Votan]

Well, to make sure we are both clear on your example, they would save on a roll of 9 if their WIS is prime, and a 15 if non Prime.

Yeah, spells will always be dangerous in C&C, you will not see saves being made 80%+ of the time, especially when in relation to non prime saves. Now there is a chance, depending on how a given CK gives out magical treasure, that they may have a bonus to their saves from magical items. Then there is still the possible effects of Protection from Evil, Prayer, etc... So under optimal conditions the save rolls can be drastically improved.

Plus spell resistance is also far more effective in C&C as well. It only ranges from 1 to 20, and you get no adds, except if you have a Robe of the Archmagi, which gives you a +2.

Yeah, that was kind of what I was thinking. Patching with treasure is a good point and not one that I'd considered. But I must admit that I am rather surprised at the lethality of Hold Person at high levels. If Wisdom is not a Prime stat . . .

I saw this as the single biggest change between C&C and AD&D -- In AD&D high level heroes tend to be less worried about failing key saving throws. In C&C, a wizard three levels higher than the party who correctly targets her spells will be absolutely lethal.

Of course, C&C has a strong house ruling tradition and saves could easily be tweaked to be more like AD&D (basing the challenge rating on the spell level and not the caster level is an immediate thought -- not sure if it would disrupt class balance, though).

 

[Treebore]

Yeah, that was kind of what I was thinking. Patching with treasure is a good point and not one that I'd considered. But I must admit that I am rather surprised at the lethality of Hold Person at high levels. If Wisdom is not a Prime stat . . .

I saw this as the single biggest change between C&C and AD&D -- In AD&D high level heroes tend to be less worried about failing key saving throws. In C&C, a wizard three levels higher than the party who correctly targets her spells will be absolutely lethal.

Of course, C&C has a strong house ruling tradition and saves could easily be tweaked to be more like AD&D (basing the challenge rating on the spell level and not the caster level is an immediate thought -- not sure if it would disrupt class balance, though).

Without a doubt, I am running a 10th to 13th level party through Q1 using C&C and I could have killed the big bad fighter with Hold Person from the priestesses a couple of times now. From lower level casters. For the classic reason, though. He rolled 1's and 2's.

However I was never able to get to his character and Coup De Grace him.

Hackmaster Basic has been proving to be much deadlier though. I killed 4 PC's tonight alone, which brings my total PC kills since early November up to 8 now. With one single Ghast.

 

[Votan]

Without a doubt, I am running a 10th to 13th level party through Q1 using C&C and I could have killed the big bad fighter with Hold Person from the priestesses a couple of times now. From lower level casters. For the classic reason, though. He rolled 1's and 2's.

However I was never able to get to his character and Coup De Grace him.

Hackmaster Basic has been proving to be much deadlier though. I killed 4 PC's tonight alone, which brings my total PC kills since early November up to 8 now. With one single Ghast.

I am not unhappy with a system that results in people failing saves on a 1 or a 2. What struck me more interesting was that the two most obvious save or XXX spells had Wisdom and Charisma as saves (things that seem odd for the typical fighter to have as primes). I am not against a 13th level fighter dying due to a poor saving throw but to have odds of death of (for example) 60% due to a single spell seems high unless you want to make raise dead routine.

[so imagine a Dwarf Fighter with 10 Charisma with Strength and Wisdom Primes who has to save against a 13th level wizard Finger of Death spell; odds of success are 40% with a +5 bonus to save due to items; with no items it is 15%]

I think that I'd feel uncomfortable with that mortality rate among high level characters. I saw it as an advantage in AD&D that the high level fighter rarely failed saves.

But, as I said, this just makes me wonder about making saves based on the spell level. So then the same Dwarf fighter has to beat a 25 (18 + 7th level spell) and succeeds on a 12+ without items and a 7+ with items. It'd break down after 20th level, though.

It'd also make the 2nd level hold person spells much less effective; unless you brought back auto-fail on a 1 and auto-succeed on a 20. The same Dwarf has a 10 wisdom and wisdom as a prime so he'd need to beat 14 versus the spell, even with gear, and so succeed on a 1.

It's worth some thought . . .

 

[scruffygrognard]

A quick fix is to use a 15/10 split in place of the 18/12 split. That improves the chance of success by 15% for non-prime saves and 10% for prime saves.

Also, depending on their level, characters should have a ring of protection (I have them give a save bonus) of +1 through +5 value to help them out.

 

[Jackal42]

I am not unhappy with a system that results in people failing saves on a 1 or a 2. What struck me more interesting was that the two most obvious save or XXX spells had Wisdom and Charisma as saves (things that seem odd for the typical fighter to have as primes). I am not against a 13th level fighter dying due to a poor saving throw but to have odds of death of (for example) 60% due to a single spell seems high unless you want to make raise dead routine.

[so imagine a Dwarf Fighter with 10 Charisma with Strength and Wisdom Primes who has to save against a 13th level wizard Finger of Death spell; odds of success are 40% with a +5 bonus to save due to items; with no items it is 15%]

I think that I'd feel uncomfortable with that mortality rate among high level characters. I saw it as an advantage in AD&D that the high level fighter rarely failed saves.

But, as I said, this just makes me wonder about making saves based on the spell level. So then the same Dwarf fighter has to beat a 25 (18 + 7th level spell) and succeeds on a 12+ without items and a 7+ with items. It'd break down after 20th level, though.

It'd also make the 2nd level hold person spells much less effective; unless you brought back auto-fail on a 1 and auto-succeed on a 20. The same Dwarf has a 10 wisdom and wisdom as a prime so he'd need to beat 14 versus the spell, even with gear, and so succeed on a 1.

It's worth some thought . . .

As mentioned above, C&C is easy to house rule and you should feel free to do so if something doesn't fit your play style. However, while you're giving it some thought there are a few things that might help.

While C&C magic is designed to be deadly at all levels of play, casters have some rather large drawbacks ranging from spell memorization to poor hit points. The C&C caster possesses powerful magic which is always useful (no longer do 10th level casters forget what 1st level spells they have memorized) but they are equally hamstrung.

Wizards suffer from low hit points, poor armor and few weapon choices. Clerics must answer to their deity as to what magic they use and how it is used (not to mention what day to day activities they are up to in general). All casters suffer from the need to memorize spells, casting requirements such as components and having to be very careful when casting in combat.

For example, the fighter you mentioned above can win the day with good use of tactics in combat. In C&C, casters will find it difficult to cast a spell while a fighter is swinging a sword at them. By default, a caster who is hit in combat or fails a save before his initiative turn automatically fails to cast the spell and loses it from his memory. There are a few optional suggestions for concentration checks but these are not nearly as useful as the 3e concentration check. That assumes your CK allows them to begin with and the above covers only the very basic fighter anti-caster tactic.

All in all, C&C saves are meant to be tough and characters are expected to survive by intelligence, alertness and, at times, a healthy dose of running. As a DM of 2e for many years, I often wondered what the point of a high level save was since most characters passed them 99% of the time anyway. In C&C, character life is always deadly when facing an equally skilled adversary.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Just wondering if a workable compromise house rule would be (1/2 Caster Level + Spell Level.) Then a Hold Person cast by a 15th level is noticeably less dangerous than a Finger of Death from a caster of the same level.

Conversely, Hold Person would still be more powerful when cast by a 15th level wizard than a 5th level one, just not as much as the RAW.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

When I ran C&C, I replaced the SIEGE-engine saving throws with AD&D saving throws.

 

[Treebore]

Just wondering if a workable compromise house rule would be (1/2 Caster Level + Spell Level.) Then a Hold Person cast by a 15th level is noticeably less dangerous than a Finger of Death from a caster of the same level.

Conversely, Hold Person would still be more powerful when cast by a 15th level wizard than a 5th level one, just not as much as the RAW.

You could, if that is what you want to go for. Personally I like the high level players still being afraid of every saving throw.

Lets also remember that this system also keeps the party spell casters equally scary.


So when they throw spells back at that 10th level caster they also have a 40 to 70% rate of successfully effecting their opponents.