Pig Champion
First Post
And how did it work out? I've been looking at C&C to try for my game for awhile now but the saves have always been a problem. That and I would implement the CMB/CMD system.
[Castles and Crusades] Save or Die Madness
- Thread starter Votan
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And how did it work out? I've been looking at C&C to try for my game for awhile now but the saves have always been a problem. That and I would implement the CMB/CMD system.
Philotomy Jurament
First Post
Well, I found myself house-ruling my C&C game to be more and more like TSR D&D (I changed saves, surprise, modified the spell lists, started using D&D turn undead tables, the way movement and time are tracked, found myself liking and using the SIEGE engine less-and-less, et cetera). Eventually I just switched over to playing TSR D&D, instead. However, there weren't any mechanical problems with replacing the SIEGE engine saving throws with D&D saving throws.
I'm a huge fan of AD&D; my main concern with them is that the books are currently out of print. I have copies (and spare PHBs for both 1E and 2E) but it's not an ideal situation.
Treebore
First Post
OSRIC is a cool resource. But I like the art and printed books of a C&C as well (maybe this is shallow but it makes it easier to lure new players).
I do think I'd have to house rule some of the elements of C&C to be really happy. My current group is in the midst of debate between Rolemaster Classic and Castles & Crusades (as an alternative to 3.5E D&D). Sadly, I am about to move to Gainesville (FL) for work and so will need to advertise to form or join a new group.
I wonder if house ruled C&C might be easiest to get people excited about.
jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
I made the same change at the insistence of my players (they complained about routinely failing saves). The saves in C&C were deeply flawed IMO, which was somewhat of shame since they were pretty much the linchpin of the SIEGE Engine (i.e., the major element of the SIEGE Engine that set it apart from other d20/OGL games). Maybe that has been addressed since 2004, though.
Treebore
First Post
Nope, still the same and I still love it. Guess it helps I hated having the other problem, where they make their saves 90% of the time.
jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
What game system does that happen in? Certainly not D&D. I mean, a D&D character gets better at making saves as they gain life experience (which is logical), but it takes quite a while to get to the level that making saves is easy (i.e., a 90% chance of success). Anyhow, as this thread evidences, incompetent PCs aren't everybody's cup of tea.
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I think it was less "incompetent" PCs than the idea of a character who had been lovingly gamed up (over say 13x4 sessions = 52 gaming sessions) being blasted out of existence (with a very high probability) with a single level appropriate spell (either disintegrate or finger of death).
I'm accepting that magi items help and that more characters might consider making charisma a prime stat because of where death magic appears to fall (which is a good thing -- charismatic fighters are very archetypical).
I'd post a play report if I can muster a C&C group.
Treebore
First Post
Yes, its D&D, and happens all the time in the higher level games. In C&C you always worry about your saves, no matter what level you are.
Heck, 3E was the worst when you took into account getting all the stacking buff spells going on top of your static magic items.
Its still pretty effective in C&C, but not so much so on non Prime attributes.
So I would have what you call "incompetent" PC's over "invincible" PC's any time. Its much more fun when your worried and survive than it is knowing you will in all liklihood be just fine. Its down right boring knowing you will be fine as long as you don't roll a 1 or 2.
Granted, play preferences differ, but personally I like significant risk.
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