Castles & Crusades...not sure about it

[Akrasia]

...

Because I don't have my book at the moment, can anyone remind me how the thief's Pick Pockets, Open Locks, etc. is handled as a SEIGE check? Is it a standard Prime Dex check, or does he get some kind of extra level bonus?

The thief/rogue adds his/her level to all attempts to use one of his/her class abilities (pick pockets, open locks, etc.).

Other characters either do not have access to the ability at all, or do not add their level to their attempt (CK discretion, though the book favours the former, more restrictive, approach).

 

[Breakdaddy]

The thief/rogue adds his/her level to all attempts to use one of his/her class abilities (pick pockets, open locks, etc.).

Other characters either do not have access to the ability at all, or do not add their level to their attempt (CK discretion, though the book favours the former, more restrictive, approach).

Yup. I follow the convention set forth in the book that suggests you not add character levels to skill attempts made while trying to utilize a class specific skill that is specific to a class other than your own. If it isnt class specific to any class in particular (things such as attempting to swim or jump across a narrow chasm) then I allow for the addition of character level to the attempt roll.

 

[nharwell]

Yup. I follow the convention set forth in the book that suggests you not add character levels to skill attempts made while trying to utilize a class specific skill that is specific to a class other than your own. If it isnt class specific to any class in particular (things such as attempting to swim or jump across a narrow chasm) then I allow for the addition of character level to the attempt roll.

The problem with that approach (which I agree is the default suggested by the book) is that the addition of any new class immediately reduces the skills of existing characters -- i.e. characters will "lose" skills as new class abilities are created....

 

[Breakdaddy]

The problem with that approach (which I agree is the default suggested by the book) is that the addition of any new class immediately reduces the skills of existing characters -- i.e. characters will "lose" skills as new class abilities are created....

Agreed. But honestly, how many classes need CORE abilities like SWIM or JUMP or CLIMB? There will still be MANY skills out there that the +level still applies to. I just dont see it as a large problem.

 

[Akrasia]

The problem with that approach (which I agree is the default suggested by the book) is that the addition of any new class immediately reduces the skills of existing characters -- i.e. characters will "lose" skills as new class abilities are created....

I had something like this concern a while ago. But then I realized that it would be easy to adjudicate in actual play.
Also, this is why class abilities should be rather specialized and remarkable.

 

[S'mon]

Rogues/Thieves - if I play one, I want to be playing Gray Mouser, or even Fafhrd - not some dweeb who has 25% Pick Pockets and d4 hit dice (thinking of OD&D). In my 3e campaign I give Rogues d8 hit dice and they're just about balanced with Fighters IMO. I shaft Clerics & Druids and try to restrain Wizards by nerfing spells as necessary and by letting them cast cure spells, sucking up their slots.

 

[S'mon]

My current campaign is Lost City of Barakus BTW - lots of combat, also lots of roleplay (Gather Info/Bluff/Diplomacy checks included), lots of traps and a fair number of obstacles like locked doors & walls. The Rogues do ok but the strongest character is definitely the Wizard. We've played from 1st to 3rd level. My previous campaign was mostly ca 10th-15th level, nobody* played Rogues (it was prior my hit die increase), again Wizards dominated although the Druid-type also was very strong. The toughest 2-hander Fighters did ok, everybody else sucked, and died a lot.

*Actually, one player played a Rogue. Once. They lasted until their first combat encounter, when they tried to Tumble past some huge earth elementals and rolled a '1'.

 

[S'mon]

As a GM I would have no problem to run a rogues only campaign, but obviously would have to create my own modules directly tailored for them. So, there would be plenty of obstacles to climb, areas to hide in, locks and traps to bypass, etc. The PCs would be no match for the sentinels, but could hide and move silently to go past them unoticed. As such, it's the fighter class that would suck, being unable to do all of this.

I played an all-Rogues game, it was great. Funnily enough, when everyone is a Rogue no question of inter-class balance arises. For a very obvious reason.
My problem is that I want Rogues/Thieves to be balanced with other classes in a typical D&D scenario - in a dungeon, traps and monsters, ca 4-6 PCs of various classes. 3e made Rogues _almost_ viable, though 3.5's 2-handed PA rule made them horribly vulnerable to melee brutes. C&C is a step back IMO.

 

[Akrasia]

I do think the variable XP tables & deliberately unbalanced classes really suck. They're one of the things that make me reluctant to convert over from 3e - even in 3e Rogues are a bit weak, but C&C went back to Rogues/Thieves as the Grand High Poobahs of Sucky Suckitude (check out their Attack Bonus table!)

Unlike other pre-3e versions of D&D, though, C&C rogues actually have a good chance at succeeding at their class abilities at first level. Also, the C&C assassin is pretty deadly IMO -- if played well, and in the right kind of campaign.

However, here is my (tentative) C&C rogue fix:

I am tempted to give the assassin the rogue's "pick lock" ability, the rogue's "back attack" ability, boost the experience chart to fighter progression, and declare the resulting class "THE ROGUE". I think the resulting product should be balanced with other classes, and fun to play as well.

[An aside: As for rogues/thieves, I liked the distinction back in Rolemaster -- you had fighters (tough combat dudes), thieves (essentially sneaky burglars, a la Mr. Baggins, but not combat ready at all), and rogues (a mix between fighter and thief -- some stealth, some tough). D&D/C&C, unfortunately, has never found a good breakdown like that IMO.]

 

[Turanil]

I am tempted to give the assassin the rogue's "pick lock" ability, the rogue's "back attack" ability, boost the experience chart to fighter progression, and declare the resulting class "THE ROGUE". I think the resulting product should be balanced with other classes, and fun to play as well.

This is similar to what I am doing: Assassins get Open Locks (as they must intrude places to slay their victims) and Sneak Attack (treated as in d20/3e, but adds d4 instead of d6, can only be done with daggers or like weapons, and stops at 11th level). Then, the C&C rogue is renamed the "Thief", and gets Appraise plus an extended Thief Cant ability (not just a slang, but also a passport for the the criminal underworld, helping Charisma checks and to gather information on criminal subjects). I had begun to do a Rogue-Acrobat class too, but now I see that I could improve this class in giving it more combat options (d8 and cleric BtH); it otherwie gets acrobatics (tumble, balance, etc.) plus a few rogue skills (climb, hide, move silent, etc.), and specific abilities (such as slow fall and evasion).