Categorizing skills in terms of their overall value

[harpy]

As a DM I try and write adventures to suit my players so I pay attention to their character sheets and the skills that they pick. That way I can have those skills get used often and thus give the player some value in their character building decisions.

One thing I've been working on is diving up the skills into their overall value in the game. Part of it is to give new players some help. If I can give them a list of the skills broken down in their overall value then it helps them to pick more effectively where to put skill points.

Also, it helps to give out little rewards now and again via free skill points. Giving out points for the skills that are less used helps add some extra flavor and also doesn't mess up the math with the heavily used ones.

So here is how I've broken them down so far:

PRIMARY SKILLS - These tend to have a direct impact in combat where the stakes are highest. These are the skills that seem to come up the most often, seeing use ever session.

Balance
Concentration
Hide
Jump
Listen
Move Silently
Spellcraft
Spot
Tumble

SECONDARY SKILLS - These are all skills that tend to have a lot at stake, though don't come up as often as the Primary skills. These can be seen used in and out of combat, often when being sneaking and deceptive or having specific character builds or circumstances that see them get used in combat.

Bluff
Climb
Disable Device
Escape Artist
Handle Animal
Heal
Intimidate
Open Lock
Ride
Sense Motive
Swim
Use Magic Device

TERTIARY SKILLS - These tend to be skills where interactions with NPCs are done outside of combat. They tend to be important to moving plots forward, though they don't tend to be used directly in combat except in special circumstances.

Appraise
Gather Information
Decipher Script
Forgery
Perform
Use Rope
Knowledge
Diplomacy
Survival
Disguise
Search
Sleight Of Hand

QUATERNARY - This last group of skills doesn't seem to get much use. I'm sure there are groups that use them more often than what I've seen, but my overall impression is that these are rarely called upon, and when they are it is almost always outside of combat.

Craft
Profession
Speak Language

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Some skills are vastly more important for some classes than for others, the biggest example being Perform, which is either essential or useless.

I think you grossly over-value Balance, I'd make that secondary at best.

Jump could be secondary, it gets outshone by flight after a while.
It may sound weird, but I think Hide and Move Silently are less valuable than spot and listen. Everyone could use spot and listen, and if sleeping, for example, it can even be a matter of life and death. Generally, only sneaky types need hide and move silently. Maybe they still belong in the same group, but they're slightly less important.

I think UMD is worth top tier, it's just plain amazing in the veratility it adds. UMD and Tumble are the skills I'm most willing to buy cross-class.

I think you sould swap Disable Device and Search. Search covers a lot more, and it's possible to avoid a trap or find other ways to disarm it than DD. But it's not possible if you don't notice the trap.

Diplomacy could easily go higher, the main issue is how easy it is for the DM to nerf what it can do. Othwerwise, it can get incredibly powerful if maxed. It can also be used to get stuff cheaper.

 

[Celebrim]

I agree mostly with your list, but want to make a point of a second division you can make that between 'active' and 'passive' skills.

Passive skills may be quite valuable, but there value depends entirely on the DM providing a challenge suitable to that skill.

Balance comes up all the time in my game (and apparantly yours), but I've seen some tables where they never roll for it and in which case players from that table might categorize it as a nearly useless skill.

By contrast, an active skill is one where the player can choose to use it to overcome common obstacles even if the DM doesn't provide them. For example, tumble is a skill a player can build their strategy around because it allows an action to be taken (tumbling past an opponent) in a common situation. Bluff likewise offers an active ability - the ability to feint. Sleight of hand gives you the ability to filch objects. The most powerful skill in the book (with the possible exception of diplomacy) is probably 'Use Magic Device' because it essentially turns anyone who has it into a mini-spellcaster.

Some skills straddle the line depending on how common a particular circumstance is at your table. Even the most active skill can be nerfed by a DM that overuses particular challenges. Diplomacy is probably the most powerful skill in the game, and is normally an active problem solving skill (along with bluff) that you can use even when your DM doesn't necessarily intend you to solve a problem with diplomacy, but if your DM only presented you with traps, oozes, and mindless undead your diplomacy points would be wasted and you'd be tempted to think of diplomacy as a passive skill. Move silently is another great problem solving skill that opens up options for you, but it too is worthless if your problems can't hear anyway or can't be bypassed or ambushed. Still, the usuage comes up often enough that diplomacy and move silently can probably be considered active skills at most tables.

Active skills are generally better than passive skills. Fortunately, d20 offers a fairly short skill list. Some game systems are packed with lots of obscure passive skills that only come up if the DM provides for them, d20 only has a few.

In my experience the best skills are the active skills and the defensive passive skills: listen, spot, search, sense motive, balance, escape artist, swim, and spellcraft (probably in that order). Those, along with concentration for spellcasters, help prevent the DM from doing bad things to you.

If I could pick my class skills (as an expert) they'd probably be diplomacy, UMD, listen, tumble, bluff, spot, search, sense motive, balance, and escape artist. Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcane), and disable device wouldn't be that far out of the running.

I think I could get by just fine without Hide and I'd miss Jump only rarely.

Ubiquitous flight is a serious problem though because it invalidates climb, jump, balance, and in many cases swim and tumble. In some cases it makes pointless even ride. All those skills become much more valuable if you are fairly certain you won't end up with the ability to fly as needed.

 

[aboyd]

TERTIARY SKILLS - These tend to be skills where interactions with NPCs are done outside of combat. They tend to be important to moving plots forward, though they don't tend to be used directly in combat except in special circumstances.

Gather Information
Knowledge
Diplomacy
Search

I have a difficult time seeing those in a tertiary skill set. I know you qualified your definition of "Tertiary Skills" to be those used out of combat (rather than those used rarely) but still, it bugs me. These 4 skills get used so much that it's weird to see them anywhere but near the top.

I allow Gather Information to be used to acquire new maps/quests/plots, etc. That has been far too important for the players to ignore. Some of them have maxed it out. Similarly, Search is just too important -- it opens up hidden areas in dungeons, it exposes treasure troves, it saves them from stumbling into traps, etc. It's just too useful.

 

[Physiker]

I let the player use knowledge in combat.
So that the get an impression of their enemies abilities.
Most of the time I let them get an idea of the Spellresistance and immunities sometimes damage reduction also.
The amount of information depends on the Knowledge check of course.
Once I gave the wizard informations about the saving throws of a creature because he rolled something over 40.

 

[roguerouge]

Diplomacy is a tertiary skill? Are you crazy? First of all, once a bard gets to mid-level, it's perfectly possible for her to stop combat cold even with the -10 penalty for rushing a check. Second, diplomacy can make non-combat sections a cakewalk for that character, which leads to all sorts of benefits in terms of privileges, manpower, favors, discounts, get out of jail free cards... Basically, diplomacy is a tertiary skill only in those campaigns where you never spend much time in civilization. It's a skill you use when you interact with anyone.

Knowledge checks to identify monster strengths and weaknesses are a free action in combat.

Intimidate is terrible in combat, a waste of an action that requires you to be in melee range. In RP, it's great... unless you need to talk to the person again, who now hates and fears you.

Balance only gets used in Paizo adventures.

Concentration is a secondary skill, by your definitions, as it's not used all the time due to PC defensive maneuvers and tactics, but you need it badly when you use it.

 

[Jhaelen]

Balance only gets used in Paizo adventures.

Well, it sees minimal use in my adventures as well. It's an arctic setting, so icy ground is a common terrain feature.

But really, the knowledge skills are the ones that see most use in my games, especially in combat. After that it's probably psicraft/spellcraft checks. The rogue is pretty much the only one using any other skills during combat.

 

[Jhaelen]

*doublepost* half an hour later - interesting!

 

[Nopal]

Spot, Listen and Search are the only three I can consider Primary cause they are the ones that get used in every session all the time by every one. All others are relative to a situation or a class specific ability ( craft - I'm making armor that will help me fight better or concentration - I'm casting defensively so i don't get hit. Swim - I fell in the water i hope i don't drown. )