Chain Devil(s) vs. Lvl 7 party

[Trit One-Ear]

Would a Chain Devil (aka Kyton, lvl 11) or two be too much of a challenge for a lvl 7 party of 5 PC's?

They've had some pretty tough fights up to this point, have spent some dailies, but have mostly managed to blow through everything they've come up against. Aside from a lucky crit almost knocking out the Paladin, there have been no real scares.

I'm not looking for an overwhelming encounter, but one to make them realize the potential power their enemies posses. I'm comfortable lowering the Kyton's levels down to 10 or even 9. I know the defenses are the main issues, and I don't want a grindy-combat (which is why I chose skirmishers).

Thoughts?

Tirt

 

[Quickleaf]

Would a Chain Devil (aka Kyton, lvl 11) or two be too much of a challenge for a lvl 7 party of 5 PC's?

They've had some pretty tough fights up to this point, have spent some dailies, but have mostly managed to blow through everything they've come up against. Aside from a lucky crit almost knocking out the Paladin, there have been no real scares.

I'm not looking for an overwhelming encounter, but one to make them realize the potential power their enemies posses. I'm comfortable lowering the Kyton's levels down to 10 or even 9. I know the defenses are the main issues, and I don't want a grindy-combat (which is why I chose skirmishers).

Thoughts?

Tirt

Definitely a reasonable challenge, not overwhelming. I've routinely used L+4 or L+5 enemies (non-soldiers) in small quantities with no issue for a party of five or six heroic tier PCs.

Threat in 4e seems to come from either overwhelming numbers, a combination of monster/terrain/situational factors, or specially designed (homebrewed) multi-phase solos. All IME of course.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Would a Chain Devil (aka Kyton, lvl 11) or two be too much of a challenge for a lvl 7 party of 5 PC's?

By the XP math, no, but, as you already pointed out, they're grindy because of the level gap. Perhaps you would consider lowering their levels a bit... but also using more of them. (One is not enough, it only takes a little luck to burn through their limited hit point pool.)

Why are you only using kytons? You might dish out more of a challenge with more varied opponents. A single kyton could hire mortal minions, or intimidate lesser fiends into helping it.

Another idea is to check out Sly Flourish's boss monster advice. They often only use one elite monster, plus some lower-level backup, but with a built-in skill challenge the PCs need to overcome, otherwise the monster's defenses are much better than normal. Once the challenge is overcome, the monster is (usually) swiftly defeated.

 

[Trit One-Ear]

Why are you only using kytons? You might dish out more of a challenge with more varied opponents. A single kyton could hire mortal minions, or intimidate lesser fiends into helping it.

Another idea is to check out Sly Flourish's boss monster advice. They often only use one elite monster, plus some lower-level backup, but with a built-in skill challenge the PCs need to overcome, otherwise the monster's defenses are much better than normal. Once the challenge is overcome, the monster is (usually) swiftly defeated.

My original idea (jotted down ages ago) was to use an Elite version of a kyton, but due to several things (world building and the types of fights the heroes have already been in) I don't want to go down that road.

I'm torn between making the encounter minion-y or skill encounter-y. They're finding the kytons in a ritual room that has been used to summon several powerful devils. The kytons have taken up residence there, partially as allies to the cultists, and partially as overseers, making sure the cultists don't back out of their deals made with the devils.

Because they've taken over the room, they've completely lined the walls and floors with chains. My initial thought was to make this a hazard (as the kytons can control/animate the chains) but then I thought about minions. Or perhaps a skill challenge. I like that idea a lot.

I could use some help putting one together (we play this evening) but my initial thoughts were along the lines of:

Each turn the players can make an Athletics/Acrobatics check to avoid being grabbed by the chains. Failure may do small amounts of damage, or just restrain them, adding complications to further checks.

Perception to eliminate some of the "bonus" the kytons have to their defenses (in reality just lowering their defenses from the standard levels).

Religion or Arcana to give another character a bonus against their check to avoid the chains, in the form of counterspelling or such the magic used to enchant the chains.

Just throwing out quick ideas; any help to form this better would be appreciated. Otherwise I'll probably use the chains as little groupings of minions or low level swarms.

Trit

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I'm torn between making the encounter minion-y or skill encounter-y. They're finding the kytons in a ritual room that has been used to summon several powerful devils. The kytons have taken up residence there, partially as allies to the cultists, and partially as overseers, making sure the cultists don't back out of their deals made with the devils.

Will the cultists be doing anything other than performing the ritual? And for that matter, will the heroes be able to disrupt the cultists directly? (That could be a skill challenge in itself, although just roasting the cultists might work better.)

Because they've taken over the room, they've completely lined the walls and floors with chains. My initial thought was to make this a hazard (as the kytons can control/animate the chains) but then I thought about minions. Or perhaps a skill challenge. I like that idea a lot.

I could use some help putting one together (we play this evening) but my initial thoughts were along the lines of:

Each turn the players can make an Athletics/Acrobatics check to avoid being grabbed by the chains. Failure may do small amounts of damage, or just restrain them, adding complications to further checks.

Perception to eliminate some of the "bonus" the kytons have to their defenses (in reality just lowering their defenses from the standard levels).

Religion or Arcana to give another character a bonus against their check to avoid the chains, in the form of counterspelling or such the magic used to enchant the chains.

Just throwing out quick ideas; any help to form this better would be appreciated. Otherwise I'll probably use the chains as little groupings of minions or low level swarms.

Trit

Sounds like a hazard, obstacle type. Note that many hazards can be shut down via skill challenges (probably Arcana and/or Religion for this one), and some allow skill checks to avoid provoking the hazard for 1 round (usually Acrobatics, but Arcana makes perfect sense for this one).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Assuming you're going with the MV stats for the kyton it looks pretty good to me. Even though it is a standard monster it has a very Elite feel to it, and modest defenses for its level. Should work rather well, though one of them by itself may well not last till round 2 with 116 hit points...

 

[Trit One-Ear]

Turned out not to matter how I handled the chains (as minions or as skill challenge). My players took one look at a room full of chains with chain demons, and ran down the hall. The wizard abused (in a fun way) Hypnotism and various other illusion powers, and the group dealt with them fairly quickly (though not before they felt the sting of the chains, and had a good dose of fear).

It worked well as a quick and dirty combat to end a somewhat long evening. Thanks all!

Trit