D&D 5E Challenge, Optimization and Optional Rules

[Barolo]

I wondered if others thought the game would be too easy with:

1. Multiclassing alone

2. Feats alone

3. Rolled stats alone

4. A combination of any two of these

Let me add one category, which I find even more "fearful":

5. High level games with an all full-caster group.

When you have a 14th level group with a diviner, an illusionist a necromancer and a land druid, it can be quite challenging to challenge them, and tailor-made encounters might be the DM's last resort.

 

[Warpiglet]

Let me add one category, which I find even more "fearful":

5. High level games with an all full-caster group.

When you have a 14th level group with a diviner, an illusionist a necromancer and a land druid, it can be quite challenging to challenge them, and tailor-made encounters might be the DM's last resort.

Even at lower levels, multiple save attempts are hard on monsters. We had a group with two characters casting entangle. In addition to a third spell via wizard. Nasty. I have yet to see truly high levels in 5e due to unstable campaigns, but I can imagine...

 

[Oofta]

Let me add one category, which I find even more "fearful":

5. High level games with an all full-caster group.

When you have a 14th level group with a diviner, an illusionist a necromancer and a land druid, it can be quite challenging to challenge them, and tailor-made encounters might be the DM's last resort.

I allowed an all mage party once ... one of few TPKs in a home game. In theory they're great at higher levels, but until then ... let's just say it wasn't pretty.

That was in a previous edition, but even in this edition if you throw enough encounters (or enough waves) at the PCs I think it could still be a challenge. Yes, on rounds they go nova they can be a force to be reckoned with. But once they start running out of spell slots? Not so much.

It would probably be more viable with this edition, but I wouldn't guarantee it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I allowed an all mage party once ... one of few TPKs in a home game. In theory they're great at higher levels, but until then ...
That was in a previous edition

That was how classes were balanced back then. That TPK 'balanced' the weird wizard show the campaign would have degenerated into had they survived long enough...

...yeah, I know...

, but even in this edition if you throw enough encounters (or enough waves) at the PCs I think it could still be a challenge. Yes, on rounds they go nova they can be a force to be reckoned with. But once they start running out of spell slots?

They use more cantrips, obviously, until they can take that long rest. That's a higher base-line than throwing darts in 1e, but it's still a baseline that should be below that of dedicated weapon-users in the same edition.

It would probably be more viable with this edition, but I wouldn't guarantee it.

All 'mage' in the sense of wizard would have to cope with the relative lack of healing, of course, exacerbating d6 HD.

 

[Krachek]

What if I start as a Warlock & MC to something else?

Play smarter. Roll more. Roll high (there's a 5% chance you crit every single time you roll the d20! )
You'll dish out the damage.

Of all tricks I think that limiting PC AC is the best way to challenge them.
You can play yours monster as smart as you want if they have to roll 19-20, you gonna roll all night long!
Limiting PC to hit, or add monster HP, simply make combat last longer without real benefit for challenge.

But you are also right. Play smarter with monster can help a lot.

 

[Warpiglet]

That was how classes were balanced back then. That TPK 'balanced' the weird wizard show the campaign would have degenerated into had they survived long enough...

...yeah, I know...

They use more cantrips, obviously, until they can take that long rest. That's a higher base-line than throwing darts in 1e, but it's still a baseline that should be below that of dedicated weapon-users in the same edition.

All 'mage' in the sense of wizard would have to cope with the relative lack of healing, of course, exacerbating d6 HD.

It was a different ball game in 1e days of course. It would be like trying to stop the run with only wide receivers as linemen. I know it was limited but damn if it did not demand team work.

More on topic perhaps is the fact that then I remember just making stuff up--going for it and hoping for the best. And its funny because I remember very few TPK. Of those that occurred, there was a lot of player misjudgment in our group.

In those cases we usually were angry for a few minutes and laughed hard afterwards. Like me messing with a deck of many things...whoops....

 

[Krachek]

Another way to challenge pc is to give them goals aside of combat.

Protect a npc
Retrieve precise list of items
Leave no witness clause.
Avoid collateral damage.
Bring back a named npc ALIVE.
Limited time frame and rest.
Conflicting personal goal inside the team.
Avoid to combat a particular group or race during the day.

 

[mflayermonk]

I wondered if others thought the game would be too easy with:

1. Multiclassing alone

2. Feats alone

3. Rolled stats alone

4. A combination of any two of these

1. Multiclassing 2. Feats 3. Magic Items
Choose 2 of the 3

 

[Krachek]

To go back to the thread question, I think that the actual xp budget is forgiving enough to allow a party composed with bad lucked rolled stats, flavorful choices of feat or multi-class.
A party of optimizer players will steamroll the standard xp budget even with all the restrictions you give,
It is why I think DM should focus more on non combat goals, rather than search for perfect encounter balance.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It was a different ball game in 1e days of course. It would be like trying to stop the run with only wide receivers as linemen. I know it was limited but damn if it did not demand team work.

There was some heavy-handed niche protection, and the aforementioned higly-theoretical balance-of-imbalances across levels, but it all came together through the 'sweet spot' levels, with multiclass non/demi-humans starting to notice their slowed advancement and level limits, casters getting the good stuff, but still not too much of it, and fightre-type toughness still mattering - and, yes, could rise to the level of teamwork.

5e mostly settled for spotlight balance, but the niche protection's a lot softer...

More on topic perhaps is the fact that then I remember just making stuff up--going for it and hoping for the best.

Best way to run back then - and, again, with 5e, for that matter, if not for quite the same reasons, DMing's still more art than science...