Challenge Rating?

[mfrench]

Um, maybe there's something I'm missing, but the way I read them, the two assumptions don't really work together. Read no. 2 first:

...secondly, that CR parallels character level.
eg. A 10th-level character is CR 10 (at least before Ability Scores).

Okay, so I encounter a level 10 fighter, he must be CR 10. Fair enough. Now go back to the first principle:

firstly that it signifies a moderately challenging encounter for a party of 4-5 characters of the same power....
eg. CR 15 suggests the opponent would be a moderate challenge for a party of four (or five) 15th-level characters.

So this level 10 fighter is a challenge for 4-5 level 10 characters? Okay, my party is five level 10 fighters . . . and this single level 10 fighter NPC ought to challenge them? Does that not seem ridiculous to anyone else?

Don't get me wrong, I was very interested when I read the rest of that post, and I'll probably look at the whole document more thoroughly. I just couldn't get my mind past those two principles, as written.

 

[genshou]

Those two principles as written are actually how it is designed to work normally. If you continually pit a single character against foes with CR equal to his own level, it's the equivalent of throwing a level+4 or so opponent against a party. What is defined as a "challenging" encounter in both the RAW and Upper Krust's system is not a creature that is likely to mop up the floor with the party, but instead one that provides a challenge, but probably won't kill any PCs, if they aren't being stupid and they have access to healing magic (just in case). The encounter should use up about 20% of their resources.

That didn't change in Upper Krust's method.

 

[gogo_jerrick]

Is your party using effective tactics? Are they utilizing the battlefield to their advantage? Are the wizards staying in back and buffing/banging, or are they trying to swing their artifacts like warriors? I agree with you - there are some CRs which, by basic math, don't make a lot of sense. However, the objective is to make the game as balanced, and as fun, as possible. We all know Rule 0 allows us to flub rolls, adjust damage here & there, and if necessary, go easy on the PCs.

There's more than one way, said the poet, to skin a cat.

Ya, they are using effective tactics. terribly effective tactics. My wizard casts necrotic cyst until it hits, and then unloads with the no-save, no-SR bloats and bursts. It's nasty. I do flub rolls, but their is only so many hp you can shave off of an encounter. Other than that I got rid of the babau DR. Other times I flub rolls to make the encounter hard enough for them not to sleep through it. When the CR's are messed up the other way around It's fun to wip out the "oh! nat 20!" Not to kill them, just to make it interesting.

 

[Coredump]

Fortunately, our own dear Upper_Krust has spent a CONSIDERABLE amount of time trying to come up with a consistant method of generating REAL CRs, based on the following assumptions:

But he also redefined what is meant by "CR"

He makes the assumption that if you double the challenge, the EL increases by 2 (an EL 14 is twice as difficult as an EL 12)....For example, fighting an encounter of +4 EL is incredibly difficult, whether you're level 2 or level 200. (If you're level 200, your EL is only 31, as EL is logrithmic) Fighting an EL +5 is for all intents and purposes, impossible to win.

He didn't make that assumption, WoTC made that assumption, and posted it in the DMG

I've attached the full document below. At least give it a look over. Use the bookmarks and jump to "Revised Challenge Ratings" if you just want to see the more accurate values for creatures, and not how those numbers were generated.

Thanks, I only have v.4, looking forward to seeing if he made any changes.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Babau CR6?- with the ability to cast darkness and greater teleport at will, two babau's can ruin a party. Two babau's managed to kill two of my four pc's in a lvl 10 party and use up most of their resources(50-70%). With damage reduction, sneak attack, damage to anyone or anything that touches it, ability to dispel all magic effects at will, and if all else fails, they can summon another one of their own. Absolutely deadly. CR 9?

Each darkness or dispel magic takes an action. Why isn't the party killing, dismissing, etc. the demons while they waste time littering the ground with darkness? Moreover, if the demons were summoned in the first place (not called), then they cannot summon more allies. Note also that the demons cannot sneak attack in the darkness. Demons do not get see in darkness like devils. So, I really disagree with this example.

...but a cockatrice is a CR 3 MOB. Which means two of them are a CR 4...

Actually, two are CR 5.

So this level 10 fighter is a challenge for 4-5 level 10 characters? Okay, my party is five level 10 fighters . . . and this single level 10 fighter NPC ought to challenge them? Does that not seem ridiculous to anyone else?

Not at all, because that is not what CR means. You can't change the standard party to one composed of all fighters or all wizards and expect it to work the same way.

 

[Nebulous]

Hmm. I like CR's from the point that i can glimpse in the book and know roughly how tough a monster is. But yeah, it really differs from group to group. Like others have stated, i don't particularly like how vanilla DnD is balanced. I prefer low to medium magic, and i don't like loading up PC's with oodles of +4 magic items just to give them a fighting chance. So when i run adventures, i balance monsters against the PC's known stats. If they all have roughly AC 18, i won't make them fight something with a +12/+12 attack bonus, i don't care what the book says. I'll make it weaker.

In the case of the babau that started this thread, that does seem sort of tough for the CR, but if there are two CR 6 monsters, what's the total ECL? 8? Against a ECL 10 party? Maybe they just got really lucky, or the PC's did not use the right strategy, or the dice just fell the wrong way. It's hard to say if CR is screwed up or not. In general it's worked for me, but i don't abide by it hard and fast by any means.

 

[gogo_jerrick]

Each darkness or dispel magic takes an action. Why isn't the party killing, dismissing, etc. the demons while they waste time littering the ground with darkness? Moreover, if the demons were summoned in the first place (not called), then they cannot summon more allies. Note also that the demons cannot sneak attack in the darkness. Demons do not get see in darkness like devils. So, I really disagree with this example.

........They can't, but why would they have too? All it takes is focusing on a spot, then littering the area with darknesses. As soon as they are in favorable positions(via teleport), dispel the darkness and go sneak attack and summon crazy. This does take actions, but you can't really do anything in magical darkness other than feel around or dispel it. All it takes is initiative and they effectively start the battle flanking and out numbering the pc's. They weren't summoned, the pc's happened across a gate and the walked through(I should also say that since their summoning ability is figured into cr, if two babau's roll extremely well then two babaus become 4=cr 8). I can take 2 babaus, and given a single surprise round(they are the assassin demons, why would they jump around and make noise and wade into hand to hand combat without position) and destroy 4 level 10's

 

[Sravoff]

I never go by thge CR, unless its some random encounter, but even then, rarely.

I almosty always go with how badly they got screwed up, ie, how much they learned.

I had a group of four 6th level chracters, they came upon a fourth level cleric and a fourth level warlock. The warlock imidietly shut himself into a cage, and loked it. The cleric cast some sort of shield on him, that kept ranged attacks at bay, then surrendered. The walrock sat in his cage and blasted them with his eldritch blast, killed tow of them, and the third finally ran away.

No one ever searched the cleric for the key.

PC's will continually run around and miss the obvous. So I bega rewarding idiocy. Since I gage xp by howe much a character would learn, as aposed to what monster it kills.

-Sravoff

 

[gogo_jerrick]

that was just abolutely brilliant^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Sravoff]

that was just abolutely brilliant^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I was laughing, they hated it.