Challenge the Players, Not the Characters' Stats

That's funny. You made a character named "narrator" and put him in your story. Isn't it odd how that "narrator" character hasn't kept on posting the story without your help?

No that is called Breaking the Fourth wall.

The narrator was not a character int he story really but reading it to you, and the character talks to him or the audience removing himself from the world he is a part of.

Like when David would address the audience on Moonlighting (TV Series).

The actual story does had Pooh's friend Tigger talk to the narrator as a joke for the children it was intended for to show how Tigger had gotten himself into trouble by not listening to warnings.

How would you feel if your party Paladin started being acted as though he was addressing the DM directly, as thought in the D&D cartoon? The DM is not something the characters have access to. Tigger was metagaming to get out of the sticky situation.

Well....I forgot exactly where I was going with skill challenges explaining this but I will fix it when I remember after properly parsing the included links.

(I am sure it had to do with Tigger getting down as a skill challenge.)
 

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Please then tell me the quantitative way to use skills in the game.

Then tell me how to judge if that skill is passed or failed without using skill checks?
Your description of which skill your PC is using, and how s/he is using it, and how that use contributes to the resolution of the skill challenge, are all taken into account by the GM in setting the DC (this is explained in the DMG in the passages I quoted upthread). The skill check (a roll of the die) then determines whether or not a success or a failure is accrued.
 


I believe what you're talking about here is a lot of what passes for "Narrative Role-play" in the Indie circles. Of course, what you are really talking about is improvisational theatre acting. That the Indie community does not wish to make a distinction between improvisational acting and role-playing does not mean real world definitions get to changes because of their preferences.

<snip>

Seriously, go back to the blind people playing Monopoly. The game is modeling a kind of reality (but one not broad enough to count as role-play). Do you really believe the rules of that game are narrative disputation resolution rules? Wouldn't all games' rules count as such then? This gets back to the inaccurate "not story-like enough" objection where stories have to be about "people" and "worlds" to count as collaborative storytelling.
Just a brief response: the indie RPG community thinks that it is distinguishing the non-story-telling game of Monopoly from the story-telling game of RPGing (which you are labelling "improvisational acting") not in terms of activity performed (which, as you note, might sometime be indistinguishable) but in terms of purpose for which that activity is performed. That is, GNS distinguishes playstyles not on the basis of activity performed, but the metagame priority that drives that activity.

Now maybe this claim about metagame priorities is wrong (although I personally am sympathetic to it). But it does explain why the indie RPG types think they have an answer to your attempt at reductio via Monopoly as played by the blind.
 

How does the DM measure those things?
In the way discussed in the DMG. There are three basic steps, the second having two components.

First step: The level of the skill challenge (which has been predetermined by the GM) tells us the DCs for Easy, Medium and Hard skill checks.

Second step: Any given skill check suggested by a player must be classified as Easy, Medium or Hard. This is done by the GM (presumably most GMs would accept input from their players) and is determined by a combination of (i) the GM's intuition as to how easy the task described by the player would be in ingame terms, and (ii) the GM's view as to how much s/he wants to reward and encourage players having their PCs attempt that sort of task. (This second component is a metagame consideration, not an ingame matter - one example of how a GM can take this thing into account is given on p 42 of the DMG, in the discussion of a PC using an acrobatic manoeuvre to push an ogre into a fire).

Third step: The GM may vary the DC by +/- 2 based on the degree of flamboyance, enthusiasm, cleverness etc of the player's description of her PC's action. (This overlaps to an extent with (ii) in the second step above, but I think (ii) is concerned with a more generic question about a generic sort of activity being undertaken by PCs in the campaign, wheras the +/-2 seems to be more about responding to the strengths of a particular player's narration/roleplaying).

That's not a mechanical process, but in a cooperative playing group I think it's a reasonably tractable one.
 

No that is called Breaking the Fourth wall.

The narrator was not a character int he story really but reading it to you, and the character talks to him or the audience removing himself from the world he is a part of.

Like when David would address the audience on Moonlighting (TV Series).

The actual story does had Pooh's friend Tigger talk to the narrator as a joke for the children it was intended for to show how Tigger had gotten himself into trouble by not listening to warnings.

How would you feel if your party Paladin started being acted as though he was addressing the DM directly, as thought in the D&D cartoon? The DM is not something the characters have access to. Tigger was metagaming to get out of the sticky situation.

Well....I forgot exactly where I was going with skill challenges explaining this but I will fix it when I remember after properly parsing the included links.

(I am sure it had to do with Tigger getting down as a skill challenge.)
I think I see where you're going, but please let me know if I'm missing the point.

I think you're saying one can role-play to the GM instead of the modeled reality. Your example is: breaking the 4th wall in order to appeal to the GM while still acting. My objection is: it doesn't matter if the character breaks the 4th wall. In role-playing or improv acting, you, the player, are the one making the decisions for him. You are the one who is choosing to ask the GM to change the modeled reality. The character cannot do this for himself.

Here's an example from Magic: the Gathering. If I improvisationally act as "the master wizard, Karl" who is the Controller of the realms (or whatever that role is) that that game is modeling, I can turn to the judge watching the competition, all the while staying in character as Karl, and say "My realm of trusty warriors doth need the rules changed to win fairly."

Now that must be the geekiest thing I've written in years, but hopefully it illustrates how acting in character doesn't change the reality of the Player being the one asking for a rule change - no matter what game rules are used or fictional reality is being modeled.
 

Just a brief response: the indie RPG community thinks that it is distinguishing the non-story-telling game of Monopoly from the story-telling game of RPGing (which you are labelling "improvisational acting") not in terms of activity performed (which, as you note, might sometime be indistinguishable) but in terms of purpose for which that activity is performed. That is, GNS distinguishes playstyles not on the basis of activity performed, but the metagame priority that drives that activity.

Now maybe this claim about metagame priorities is wrong (although I personally am sympathetic to it). But it does explain why the indie RPG types think they have an answer to your attempt at reductio via Monopoly as played by the blind.
Again, role-playing and improv acting are different in the same way as asking "is this you or is this you acting?" This distinguishes between fundamentally different ways of being. Trying to equate all behavior with theatre acting may be what is confusing those gamers wanting to play theatre improv games instead of RPGs.

To clarify a distinction you made: I am not saying all RPGs are improv acting games. I am saying RPGs are games with role-playing in them. One can improvisationally act or not while playing them just as one can in any game. To do so does not make those games "acting" games (much less RPGs). See my baseball explanation above.

Now, are you saying that when someone does NOT improvisationally act in an RPG (portray their character's personality) it is NOT a story-telling game? In other words, RPGs are telling a story when done "in-character', but not "out-of-character"? This is a confusion I can understand as the in-character portrayal of a PC displays their personality. That portrayal of personality would count as a story for me just as it would for anyone who watches acting on stage, TV, film, or other format. But as I just said in the previous paragraph, that kind of improv acting can be added to any game. If that's what it takes to be included as a storytelling game, you can relax. The only rule you'll ever need to add to a game is, "Pretend you're another person while playing this game". That rule is totally unnecessary to role-play.

Here's the big difference: Just as in the Mickey Mantle example for baseball, one does not need to portray a personality to play a role in a game. Baseball, and role-playing, work just fine without anyone pretending to be someone else. In Baseball, you take on the role of a baseballer. In an RPG, you take on the role of, say, a human fighter in a modeled reality. Both the baseball field and the modeled reality are real. If baseball were a game like Monopoly or another boardgame and modeled a fictional idea beyond just the rules, then we'd see things like bases called "stars, moons, planets" in other words, the components of whatever fictional reality we thought it modeled. Typically, the fiction determines the design of these games just as it does when you add house rules to the design of an RPG. The fiction isn't the "real" part, it's just the terminology one enjoys when playing - just as "hotel", "house", and "Jail" are terms referring to models of those fictional things in Monopoly.

If all we were doing was telling a story, all of this would be unnecessary. You would not need to test the player's ability to do the role. [To bring everything back on topic] You could "just say" that Mickey hit a homerun and we could move on with his actor's portrayal.



EDIT: In regards to meta-game priority making games storytelling games. Perhaps my distinction between acting and role-playing (one you seem to refuse to see) is not swaying you for why RPGs are not storytelling. From your explanation, it would seem any "intent" by the participant to tell a story, regardless of what the action may be, is what determines the "telling of a story". To expand, I take you to mean here that theatre acting has nothing to do with making something a story. You could not theatre act and yet have "intent" while doing an "non-theatre action". And simply by having that intent the doing becomes the telling of a story. That you can simply "live" in such a way as to tell a story vs. "living not to tell a story" acting be damned.

This must be the the reason I keep hearing this Black Hole argument of "You can tell a story about it, so it's a story game". But then, of course, you get crazy arguments like Monopoly not being a story game. Your "meta-game intent" priority rationale disqualifies any such thing as soon as I "meta-gamingly intend" to play Monopoly to tell a story. Then it all counts. Even when I say, "none of our group's RPG games are done with the 'intent" to storytell." I am correct here, as we don't have that "meta-game intent".

This is a myth in my book. Intent isn't a definer beyond normal acting and theatre acting. To agree so means anything could be done without such intent and need to be re-termed for it. The realities of all such "intent" termed actions/games would need to be re-addressed, so as not to confuse anyone coming in without such intent. As I've shown above with "acting during a game" and "not acting during a game" this "Acting Intent" definer seems to have no bearing on titling normal activities.
 
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Here's a quick example for people still confused. It uses role-playing as defined in the dictionary and an example from outside the hobby, so we don't get confused by "Big Model" theory.

At a Medical School a professor decides to put her students through a role-playing experiment. She has been teaching them emergency medicine and ER protocols for weeks and now wants to see how well the students do in a simulated environment. She assigns each a name tag with fictional doctor names like, Meredith Grey, Cristina Yang, and "Izzie" Stevens.

The professor takes them into the gymnasium where she has a mock up of a 10 car pile up. It is complete with dummies as accident victims and some other props. She could do this in a conference room with figurines and toy cars, but they have the space available and the gym seems easier.

With a stop watch she keeps time, but remembers to stop it when she needs to explain things so that the fictional reality gives more accurate results of students' response times. As the scenario plays out (the role-play is being done) the "doctors" work hard to save the "patients". What that entails is the test of the role-playing scenario. The students (and professor) are learning how good of doctors they are in such a situation. Just as D&D RPGers learn and better themselves at how good they are as fighters, wizards, clerics, etc. in fantasy world situations.

Now just because the student role-playing "Doctor Merideth Grey" starts talking like the character in the TV show (Grey's Anatomy), it doesn't mean the game just became a television episode or, more clearly, an improvisational theatre play. It is role-playing because the student is succeeding based upon here ability to save "patients", not have Emmy Award winning nervous breakdowns. She can do the same at the same time, but when it interferes with her ability to role-play it's getting in the way of scenario. The professor or any fellow student could easily ask her to "get back on track" or whatever and address the difficulty of the game.

Now what happens if the Professor stops the scenario and changes it? If she decides to change the situation, "Let's say this patient lost 2 pints of blood, not 1. What now, doctor?", then she's altering the game. This isn't narrative authority as she is not saying how one may or may not portray their character. Is this her "role-playing" because she is explaining the environment the students are interacting with? Of course not. Is she running the modeled scenario when she does this? No, again. She is redesigning the game. As professor, she is the one in charge of the game and is using it as a teaching tool, so she redesigns the scenario to best test the students in a variety of ways.

In a role-playing game played for amusement, it would seem the entire group would have to agree on altering the gameworld. Because you cannot change the game without stopping role-playing and redesigning the game these redesigns are not the character changing the game. They are everyone agreeing the game should be altered without role-playing to get from one game scenario to the next. Essentially, you are skipping across across different game scenarios like skipping between adventure modules without successfully role-playing your way there. It is playing the game to skip the consequences of role-playing thereby causing your role-playing successes to be shallower and shallower in their importance.
 

I am not saying all RPGs are improv acting games.
Yep, I realise that, but looking again at my post I can see how I generated a mistaken implication.

I was just trying to say what I think the indie-RPG ways is of distinguishing their RPGs (which you say are not RPGs at all, but rather storytelling games) from blind-player-Monopoly, which you implied they are committed to labelling an RPG also.

They distinguish the two by appealing to different metagame priorities.
 

howandwhy99, this is an interesting example and makes me understand more what you understand under the term of "role-playing".

But that's just not what I understand or expect from roleplaying games like D&D, Shadowrun or Warhammer.

My goal is not this:
Just as D&D RPGers learn and better themselves at how good they are as fighters, wizards, clerics, etc. in fantasy world situations.

I want to tell the story of a Fighter, Wizard, Cleric and Rogue (why do you not love rogues and lump them under "etc."? ;) ) engaging in adventures. And I want to do it in a "playful" way, using game mechanics to resolve conflicts in game. I like figuring out new and good tactics, but I am not necessarily interested in the idea of being an effective fighter in a fantasy world situation.

And I think while "role-playing" strictly defined might be what you describe it as, I think the context of "role-playing games" changes its meaning again to encompass more than that, and also includes the "story-telling" or "acting" aspects. Trying to narrow down role-playing games to exclude these aspects seems like a bad idea. Because people use RPGs for all these purposes, and most games support each aspect.
 

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