Challenging my high-lvl group (NPCs and monsters; my players shouldn't read this!)

[Kaodi]

Radical Idea?

Well, I was just sitting here, pondering over things when inspiration struck yet again.

So? You want to find the soul of Spira, eh? Well, there is a small problem. You see, Elder, he uh... ate it. Oh, don't worry, being devoured by a primal incarnation of entropy and destruction isn't *quite* enough to do the trick. The thing is still there! The problem is though, it isn't that easy to get it out. Not like you can just give the bugger the Heimlich manouever and it'll pop right out, right? Or maybe you can...

The thing is, if you could someone infiltrate that despicable goon, you could theoretically get to the soul of Spira. The question is: What is the soul of Spira? I'm not really sure that I can describe it to you fully, but part of the answer could be interpreted as it being the memory of all that has gone on on this planet. No one knows what Spira was like when the worms came, right? Wrong, my friend! The worms themselves still remember, and through this memory you can enter the soul of the world itself.

Be warned though, my friends, for this is no simple task. If the worm who holds the soul of Spira is slain while he still holds it in his belly, the world will crumble, and everything and everyone dies, in an instant. No coming back. However, as terrible as fighting that mighty beast may seem, the soul is far more perilous to your own. Within, you may find yourselves reliving the memory of Spira, the one from before the worms came. What you will see, I cannot tell you, for that knowledge is unfathomable to me, but I do believe that here you will find the secret to freeing the soul of Spira, and perhaps destroying the worm in the process!

Please don't forget though, that there is still going to be one left!

 

[CrusadeDave]

Okay then. Spoilers ahead, matey; ye've been warned.

[sblock] For instance, right now the only good way we know of to get to the metaphysical center of the world is to plummet there in agony after getting hit by Velendo's shield (a talisman of pure good). How would you get to the center of creation, in a way that didn't involve purely physical travel through the underdark?

[/sblock]

Well...

[sblock]What if you worked with that mechanic. The way to get there is to be hit with a Talisman of Pure Good, or Evil. In fact, down there, is everyone who every HAS been hit with said Talisman.

Imagine a couple of BBEGs who thought they were close to World Domination being hit the Talisman of Pure Good. Plummeting down to the center of world, they are startled to find a small society of 2 World Devouring Worms, asking them to be vessels for the ultimate revenge on the planet.
[/sblock]

This allows you to bring back any ancient villain of your planet you want, either in Worm form, or humanoid/outsider form. Sort of like the old Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Arcade, Simpsons, or X-Men games, where before you faced Shredder/Mr. Burns/Magneto you had to defeat Beebop+Rocksteady+Krang/Sideshow Bob+Smithers+the Mafia/Brotherhood of Evil Mutants and Nimrod all over again, but this time all at once.

 

[The_Warlock]

Well, as a blatant steal from an old module...What about the Ingress in the Planescape module Dead Gods? They guard the pockets of the lowest layer of Pandemonium, and it's generally impossible to magically transport yourself reliably to the Agathion pockets since they are all so similar, and you are on a planar boundary. So there are the Ingress, a disgusting psychich flesh mound "mother" who excretes her children from the folds of her flesh to hunt for food for her. When someone who needs to find a pocket arrives, the children swarm forth, non-violently and wait for food. Once fed the wait expectantly for the traveler to think of the thing or place they want to find...at which point the mother roars, the children pig pile the traveler, who is dissolved into squamous liquid that flow through the cracks of the planes to the place he seeks.

Now, alter that, and change the ingress to the original soul of Spira, corrupted by aeons of abuse and neglect by villains and high mages, forced to contain the eternal souls of wicked being sent to the deeps by talismans of pure good, ready for death, and spawning abberations to try and prevent tampering by so called nature gods so that she/it can finally die. The worms came, found her, and offered her the oblivion she seeks. And they were granted to the core, laying their eggs inside the very soul of the original world...

The DoD figure out there is a living soul to the world, and that it isn't any mere goddess of nature. They delve deeply, and finally find the outthrust which is the "face" of spira. She wants to end her miserable existence, and thus rebuffs their request for access to stop the worms. The PCs have to convince her that there is something better than oblivion, and that if she allows them to stop Elder and the brood, they can give her a new chance, along with everyone that dwells upon her. If not, they dare to attack the face of Spira, and in so doing open the heart of the world, releasing anything previously trapped there, as well as giving the worms free rain to exit without Elder or the other great worms having to sacrifice themselves to let the brood breach the final barriers...

PS: I love Kodali's Retreat,...so much I have stolen it for my run, though renamed...things which help prophecy of doom and apocalypse so make my day. So, thank you PC for putting that little Gem in the Universe you have shared with us

 

[Robbs]

The fundamental problem with this approach is that it often comes across as extremely contrived. That somehow there exist many different ways of doing something that no one has ever done before, and by some miracle none of the group are going to be left out... in a really small group it's not so bad, but when you're transporting a dozen characters/cohorts/mounts, it's a bit much.

No, really, tell me what you think! I may not understand the full context of the descent into the center but my idea wasn't that there were conveniently x number of methods (and oh look there are x number of us) but rather that there was no universal method. Therefore either the onus is on the players to use things from their background to attempt to achieve this or through their divinations/research/etc. they would come across different possibilities. If Option A requires that you be an outsider or is only open to lawful types (restrictions vary, check your local listing for details) then that could get 1 or 2 but not everyone.

Back to various avenues...PC you mentioned you didn't want them to get there thru the Underdark, does that also mean no physical travel at all? If physical travel is an option then entry thru something a la the Marianas Trench might be an option. Something involving the incredible depths and maybe a transitional area at the bottom of the trench that blends elemental planes or some such would provide some unusual backdrop and require some different preparations by the group (although this may hit too close to the kuo toa story arc).

If it is strictly metaphysical does it need to be tied strictly to the good/evil element of the talisman? Or is it more of an opposites thing? It may be too science fictiony but something along the line of exposing someone to negative and positive energy at the same tiime shunting them to this center?

 

[Steverooo]

Getting the DoD ANYWHERE is the least of your worries! They have Gate, Teleport Without Error, and anything else they need... I don't see the problem. They can go Astral or Ethereal, travel the Plane of Shadow, whatever!

If they need to contact the Heart of Spira, Galanna seems a likely ally (and with Tao, they have an "In"). Again, I see no problem.

I would kill off Elder, too... but before I did, I would have him whisper threats of revenge to Stone Bear! That should shake them up, especially when he realizes that Elder is no longer in his head!

When the eggs start hatching, sleepers should awaken, screaming! Dogs howl, cats scream, birds fly, chirping like crazy, and seers go mad. Maybe Psions, too (certainly pre-cogs)! Rabbits & Deer run, etc. Hopefully, by then, the PCs will know what's going on...

If the Worms are dead, though, I don't think there will be too much "adventure" in this episode... It doesn't seem too interesting, if it's just a "race against time to reforge the world" before the newest batch of Worms hatch... even if it takes place inside darkly glowing lava, in the center of the earth... Needs some spice...

 

[Spatzimaus]

Therefore either the onus is on the players to use things from their background to attempt to achieve this or through their divinations/research/etc. they would come across different possibilities

And my objection wasn't that there shouldn't ever be multiple ways. It's just that it causes some huge logical problems to try and tailor things to the individual players when you're talking about something as critical as this.
If there were many ways to get there, at least one would have become used by now. And with the distribution of alignments/races/backgrounds in the group, not only would any method be available to many other groups wanting to get to the core, but it'd be extremely contrived to have only the backgrounds of the group correspond to the various methods.
And then there's the more practical side. The party needs to arrive in the core at the same time, since it's practically guaranteed they'd have to fight. So, you couldn't mix "fast" methods with "slow" ones. They'd prefer a method that could carry the entire party in one shot, so the only way to force individualized methods would be to have each method only transport one or two people.

Now, the EFFECTS could be distinct. A common method is to have the cost vary by the individual, which is especially easy if the method is being caused by an intelligent being. Or, have the perceived experience vary. But I think that it's just untenable to require the party to come up with multiple methods, because it opens the door for far too many other problems.

--------------------------

Anyway, how should they get down there? Like Steverooo says, they have all those abilities. Ergo, there must be some reason those abilities can't be used for this purpose. (After all: why didn't they just Gate to Nacreous when they were dealing with the White Kingdom? Instead they trudged all through the Underdark, and had to do favors for an earth spirit to get there in time.)

Now, Halcyon killed Yuute, one of the people Velendo hit with his shield. That'd imply that she had a way of getting to wherever Talismans banish to. Instead of using Halcyon's legacy (I vote her sword!) as a method of solving the problem, use it as the transportation method, and find something ELSE to use to solve the actual problem.

But again, it could come back to the Worms. If a Worm sacrificed itself to raise a barrier around the eggs, you could easily require exceptional efforts to penetrate to the core. And the real question is whether you want the DoD to face an active, hyperintelligent enemy (Elder) or a swarm of near-mindless hatchlings. Two very different styles of encounter.

 

[Ashy]

Getting the DoD ANYWHERE is the least of your worries! They have Gate, Teleport Without Error, and anything else they need... I don't see the problem. They can go Astral or Ethereal, travel the Plane of Shadow, whatever!

If they need to contact the Heart of Spira, Galanna seems a likely ally (and with Tao, they have an "In"). Again, I see no problem.

But think about that for a moment. We are talking the metaphysical center of an ENTIRE PLANET here - it should be far more special (and thus difficult) to get to the metaphysical and spiritual center of a planet than it is just to get to the mere physical center of a planet! (and here I am talking like a trip to the center of a planet is as simple and commonplace as a trip down to the local tavern, but it's not, is it? Even in most high magic fantasy campaigns, to boot!)

I keep seeing something like an entire new plane of existence - something that no one has ever seen before - maybe something that ties in to the fundamental creative/destructive force of the entire multiverse. Something along the lines of a place were the crystalized metaphysical centers of all inhabited worlds, from the beginning of time to the end, are strung haphazardly in the void. Each world contains the sum of all of its inhabitants' experiences, but these memories and experiences are not whole - they are merely fragments that somehow, all collected, compise a new wholness - the sum total of a world.

Maybe in this place, magic doesn't work the same way as it does in the "known" multiverse - perhaps it does not work at all (talk about making for an interesting high-level battle, try tossing that one in). Perhaps this place is the opening of a brave new vista for the characters - a place that some of them (Agar in particular) might not want to leave...

I would kill off Elder, too... but before I did, I would have him whisper threats of revenge to Stone Bear! That should shake them up, especially when he realizes that Elder is no longer in his head!

I've been thinking alot about the Stone Bear/Elder connection as well. I think that you should consider, PC, letting Stone Bear start getting "visions" of what the worms have planned. I mean, SB was connected spiritually to Elder for a time - surely there was a bit of "bleed over" there... Just a thought.

 

[carpedavid]

Here's an idea for another potential "bad omen," though I'm not sure it'll work with your cosmology. What if the metaphysical center of spira is where souls originate, and, as the worms start eating it/cutting off its influence, things stop being born (or better yet, everything is stillborn)? Farmers and druids would notice first, then the peasantry, then the nobility. For an added kick, crops might fail to germinate.

So, not only do you have the immediate threat to worry about, you've got a world that's wondering why the gods have abandoned them, and you've got people slowly beginning to starve because their food sources aren't being replaced.

Heck, you could even have people start to resort to cannibalism if the lack of new food goes for too long, which might be even more horrifying than what would have happened had the White Kingdom won.

Just a thought - like I said, I'm not sure whether it fits in with the cosmology.

 

[Funeris]

I like Ashy's idea of a new plane...I had a similar thought last night but I decided not to delurk until this morning. It would have to be an undiscovered if not unconventional plane. Physically it could just be described as a seemingly infinite land mass composed of gray soil....stretching indefinitely to its horizons. Perhaps in the northern sky there is a flashing pulse of brilliant energy...positive in nature....where souls are created...as Ashy said. Conversely, there is a rolling pulse of black energy to the south. Negatively charged and responsible for decay.

You may even have two other forms of "energy" in the west and east. To the west perhaps objects have unusally sharp edges, as if drawn with a sharpie and a ruler. The eastern horizon (and any objects out that way) are constantly in motion...arcing, rippling, evolving.

Meanwhile, in the sky, float faint whispy orbs of light...the souls of the planets. These orbs become more cubic when approaching the western lawful edge of this reality...These souls might have an orbit within this plane, bringing an individual planet-soul alternately toward the forces of life, death, law, and chaos...enforcing a balance that keeps a world alive.

So Halcyon's blade is connected to this plane...a plane that predates the greater gods. It would obviously be tied to the lawful or western aspect. The blade could get them there.

As for the worms, they were around before the current pantheon. They would probably know of this place...and maybe can easily get there coming from a time before the current pantheon. Hell, maybe they used this plane to travel between the different worlds they used to help destroy.

How do your characters get here? Cosmologically it encompasses all of the other planes. You could access any plane...any world from within its borders. At the same time, its spaced so that access from the other planes/worlds is denied. It is AND it is not. It would be the access hallway in the matrix movies...and you need the right key. So, do you send 'em searching for a Mcguffin? Nah.

Instead, the worms while passing into this place tear a brief hole in the planar fabric. They never had to come here before a world died...so it leaves a tear through which the DoD can travel. This tear doesn't just show up in their world. It seeps chaotic energy into the lawful planes, lawful energy into the chaotic planes....etc. etc. etc.

So, they're dealing not only with the end of Spira....but with the multiverse collapsing upon itself. Too bad they don't have the Crosser's Maze The beauty of the worms opening the metaphysical path for the Defenders is that the Defenders won't be able to get there before the worms. Once they get there...they'll be tied up with fixing the multiverse...while the worms have already accessed Spira's soul...entered it after perhaps making a deal with it per The One Warlock's idea...and began to reproduce...

I dunno though...I could keep expounding on this endlessly though...so I'll just sit back and see if I stirred up any creative juices...

[RESUMES LURKER MODE]

 

[Funeris]

Alright...one more thing...

Kodali's Retreat might actually tap into this plane some how...and use it as a database...and that's how it always manages to orbit around a dying planet...maybe there's a doorway into the plane hidden somewhere in the retreat...a way to upload your own sentience to the plane or some such...

Maybe two more things....items of extreme alignment such as Halycon's blade and Agar's shield are connected to the planes as well...although this may just be a fluke caused in the creation of the item.

[SERIOUSLY RESUMES LURKER MODE NOW]