Changeling and Disguise/Alter Self

[Caliban]

I know it's possible to stack many spell bonuses onto one check. I just put forth my case for why these specific spells should not stack in this specific case. Do you have a specific counter-case, or just a general denial?

That came out snarkier than I wanted. It's just I feel like I did my best to explain why I don't see the spells stacking and didn't feel like you responded to any of the points I raises, despite quoting my post.

That's ok, you didn't address any of the points I made for why they should stack (according to the rules) in my very first post on the thread.

 

[Kurotowa]

That's ok, you didn't address any of the points I made for why they should stack (according to the rules) in my very first post on the thread.

Although I wasn't responding to you, as I look back at your post I think I did cover your point. Just because unnamed bonuses can stack does not mean they do stack. As the spells point out they are creating a disguise, not enhancing it. If you put an illusion on top of a transformation, all that is seen is the illusion. With Disuise Self a male elf, half-elf, or half-orc would all gain the same +10 to disuise themselves as a human female. So why would it matter would it matter which of those bodies you take on with Alter Self or as a Changeling before you use the Disguise Self?

Because Alter Self and Disguise Self have the same degree of mastery with a disguise (+10), we must infer that neither is better than the other at fooling others as to who and what you are, even if the Disguise Self does things that Alter Self does not (illusionary clothing and equipment). If both do the same thing (create a disguise) with the same result (+10), how can they be combined?

 

[Anti-Sean]

Similarly, two separate spells are part of the same disguise "kit" - potentially along with a mundane disguise kit.



Depends on what he's attempting to disguise himself as ...

"Damn! Sorry, Captain, it looks like that changeling got away. This room is empty except for a huge pile of elf ears. Lets check the next building!"

 

[Caliban]

Although I wasn't responding to you, as I look back at your post I think I did cover your point. Just because unnamed bonuses can stack does not mean they do stack.

You might want to check the rules on unnamed bonuses again. (PHB, page 171-172, Combining Magical Effects, Stacking Effects, Different Bonus Names, last sentence: "A bonus that isn't named ... stacks with any bonus."

As the spells point out they are creating a disguise, not enhancing it. If you put an illusion on top of a transformation, all that is seen is the illusion.

Not actually true. Or at least, nothing in the rules actually state that. As has been pointed out, the spells can be used affect different aspects of the disguise (disguise self for equipment and clothes, Alter Self for physical form and appearance. You don't have to have the illusion "covering" your entire body, you can use it for certain parts, and the transformation for other parts.

If the illusion had to be "on top" of everything and "cover" your entire body, the only bonus you would be able to use would be your skill and the spell bonus. You wouldn't be subject to any of the bonuses or penalties listed to the Disguise Check listed on page 73 of the PHB.

With Disuise Self a male elf, half-elf, or half-orc would all gain the same +10 to disuise themselves as a human female.

Not exactly. There's an additional penalty for disguising your race, something the elf (and possibley half-elf) wouldn't have to do.

So why would it matter would it matter which of those bodies you take on with Alter Self or as a Changeling before you use the Disguise Self?

Because you can then use the Disguise Self spell to focus on other aspects of the disguise, like your equipment. Things not handled by Alter Self or the Changeling ability. But mainly because the rules are pretty clear about unnamed bonuses stacking. Especially when it's not the same effect generating the bonus.

Because Alter Self and Disguise Self have the same degree of mastery with a disguise (+10), we must infer that neither is better than the other at fooling others as to who and what you are, even if the Disguise Self does things that Alter Self does not (illusionary clothing and equipment).

No, we don't have to infer that at all. I don't think the amount of the bonus has anything to do with stacking.

Example: Skill Focus give me a +3 bonus on a skill. Having a Familiar can give me a +3 bonus on a skill as well. Are you claiming that since it's the same total bonus it wouldn't stack, even though it's from two different sources that grant the bonus in different ways?

The two spells are different effects, and grant an unnamed bonus. By the rules, they absolutely stack. (If they were both illusion or both transmutation you could make a case for "same effect more than once in different strengths", but that's not what is happening here. This is why I don't think Alter Self would stack with Polymorph X.)

If both do the same thing (create a disguise) with the same result (+10), how can they be combined?

Because they do it in different ways, and the bonus is unnamed. The amount of the bonus is irrelevent, only the type of bonus and the way that bonus is achieved.

 

[Kurotowa]

I think the trouble is we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about what the spells do and how they interact, and you're talking about the numbers and how they add up. So you don't see my point as a factor to the numbers, and I see your's as secondary to if the numbers should matter in this situation.

Sadly, I don't think we're going to come to a meeting of minds here, and will have to agree to disagree about our play styles. Anyone else have a response about what I was trying to bring up, or is this one played out?

 

[Caliban]

I think the trouble is we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about what the spells do and how they interact, and you're talking about the numbers and how they add up. So you don't see my point as a factor to the numbers, and I see your's as secondary to if the numbers should matter in this situation.

Actually, I addressed both the numbers and "what the spells do" in my response. On either level, nothing disallows them from working together. Ignoring that part of my post doesn't make it go away.

 

[blargney the second]

Incidentally, I decided to make a human with a Hat of Disguise, and used the bonus skill points to crank up my Disguise check. I know for sure that skill ranks stack with the Hat.

-blarg