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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kinematics" data-source="post: 8069903" data-attributes="member: 6932123">So, no new discussion in the last couple of days.  Was hoping for some critiques.  I guess everyone's time was diverted to the poll thread about whether to include ASIs in the race portion of the construction.  I had explicitly ignored that as being a separate and orthogonal issue to what I was examining.Morrus has made one comment on the issue of racial variants, such as Sea Elves that can breath underwater.  Namely, they would be considered a separate race, mechanically, than standard elves.  Which makes sense, and simplifies some of the issues.To keep things balanced, however, we'll need to account for how much design space such factors occupy, and make sure all races have that amount of space. For example, pulling from the UA elf subraces for sea elves and avariel:Elf<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lifespan: 750 years. Young until 100</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Size: 5-6 feet, slender, Medium</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Speed: 30 feet</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Darkvision: 60 feet</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fey Ancestry: Advantage against being charmed, can't be magically slept</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Trance: Don't need to sleep. Long rest in 4 hours</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Keen Senses: Proficiency in Perception</li> </ul>Sea Elf<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lifespan: 750 years. Young until 100</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Size: 5-6 feet, slender, Medium</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Speed: 30 feet</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Darkvision: 60 feet</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Trance: Don't need to sleep. Long rest in 4 hours</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Keen Senses: Proficiency in Perception</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Child of the Sea: Can breath both underwater and in air. Has a swim speed equal to walking speed.</li> </ul>Avariel<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lifespan: 750 years. Young until 100</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Size: 5-6 feet, slender, Medium</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Speed: 30 feet</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Darkvision: None</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Trance: Don't need to sleep. Long rest in 4 hours</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Flight: Has a flying speed of 30 feet while not wearing medium or heavy armor</li> </ul>Sea Elves and Avariel both had Fey Ancestry (advantage vs Charm, can't be slept) removed.  Avariel also lost Darkvision and Perception proficiency.  In exchange, Sea Elves get swimming speed and water breathing, while Avariel get flight.Is that balanced?  It's hard to say in concrete terms.  If a player is shown these options, are there reasonably strong motivations to choose any given one of them, or would one of them vastly outweigh the others, in terms of player interest? (And that needs a broad spectrum of players, not a single person who may have particular interests.)Is this an adequate amount of design space for the racial portion of character creation?  Note that this isn't including ASI bonuses, which might potentially be replaced with some feat equivalent unique to each race.  I think if that's factored back in, we have enough design space to make relatively useful options for players to choose from.  We just need to make sure that there's value in each choice.  For example, is there any point in having Sea Elves vs just using Tritons?  The mechanical benefits are fairly similar.  Do we need another elf variant in the same space?  Do we lose anything (particularly compatibility) by not having a Sea Elf race?And, most importantly, does this obviate the need for a Location under Upbringing? The design needs for a Sea Elf are fairly similar to the Underdark modifications for Dark Elves.  This partly depends on whether the Upbringing: Location mechanic serves a sufficiency independent purpose.  Should Dark Elves be Elves from the Underdark (Elf race, Underdark location), or should be their own independent race?  Could the Sea elf be constructed as an Elf from under the Sea?  But by the time we get back around to the Avariel that falls apart again for balance reasons.So, questions:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Do the above examples provide sufficient design space (possibly with the addition of an ASI or feat) to be considered adequate independent choices?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">How much should we lean on separate races for differentiation?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">How much do we need to consider for balance purposes? (Particularly things like natural weapons, either making them more useful, or obviating them.)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Should I put together a more extensive race list for comparison/balance purposes, even if the A5E design is only intending to include the PHB races?  Having a better measure of the range of balance needs means more accurate suggestions for how far the base races can be adjusted.</li> </ol></blockquote>

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