Changing the Elf abit

[BBQ Man]

Just wondering what you folks' thoughts would be if one were to change the elf to include a -2 strength penalty. What would you give in exchange to balance, or do you think it's a terrible idea and why?

 

[poilbrun]

I'd probably give them a +2 to intelligence as they are often shown as good wizards (high magic being an example). I think this would be balanced, but IMO, that wouldn't really suit their flavor, as I have never really gotten from reading about them that they were less strong than a human...

 

[Felnar]

so an elf is a medium sized halfling?
but with -2 Con

what is your goal in lowering their strength?

 

[Afrodyte]

Just wondering what you folks' thoughts would be if one were to change the elf to include a -2 strength penalty. What would you give in exchange to balance, or do you think it's a terrible idea and why?

Nixing the Constitution penalty would probably work. But if you insist upon keeping it, adding a Wisdom bonus seems to fit well given their keen senses. Alternatively, a Charisma bonus could work too.

 

[Ferret]

If I were to change the stats I would give the +2 to charisma. But I'd be more inclined to add flavour to elfs. Something like a + to enchantment spells.

 

[BBQ Man]

so an elf is a medium sized halfling?
but with -2 Con

what is your goal in lowering their strength?

There isn't really a goal rules wise, more of getting the average elf to fit to what my mental picture is of them. If I say that a Human is baseline average, and then I say that elves are, on average, of a slighter build, therefore less muscle mass and weaker, then what rules are needed to reflect this? Do they still get the -2 Con? I don't know if I am happy saying that the average elf is less healthy than a human. Why are they more likely to succumb to disease and poison?

The maximum strength limit on a human yields an extremely beefy guy, I'm just not comfortable with the image of that mass of flesh twice the size of a normal guy having pointed ears skipping through the forest. I like that humans are stronger than elves, and Half-orcs stronger than humans *shrug*

Then it all comes down to what that -2 Str is worth. With the 3.0 DMG it stated that str modifications were worth more than mental on a 1 to 2 basis, so a -2 str penalty would be equated by two +2 bonuses. I don't see that in the 3.5 DMG was it removed? am I missing it? and was it removed for space reasons, deamed not necessary or wrong?

So I come here and ask advice, an elf with modifiactions of -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Int, seems abit much to me but I'm no great designer. Maybe just -2 Str, +2 Dex? but am I weakening the race too much?

Thanks for the help and more ideas are welcome

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Con is (much) more valuable than Str for at least seven of the eleven core classes, and arguably more valuable for the remaining four (monk, fighter, ranger and paladin).

The 3.0 DMG's bit about strength being more valuable was one of the worst passages in the entire 3rd edition of D&D. Totally off-base. I can't imagine what playtests indicated this, but years of campaign play by groups all over the world have certainly put the lie to it.

 

[Felnar]

i understand what you mean,
but on a 3-18 scale its hard to have slight variances
good points tho
"Why are they more likely to succumb to disease and poison?" - you'd think something that lives 500+ years should be almost disease immune.

really, its all there for game balance and ease of mechanics.
humans are twice as tall and 4x the weight of a halfling, but the halfling only has -2 str (and the same weapon reach), and human and halflings have just as many hitpoints (toughness/staying power)

but, if you'd prefer elves to be a less physical race, go for it and give them +mental stats
i'm just pointing out that if you change the numbers to make two races compare better in your, you should compare the mod-race to all the others as well.
Average elf is weaker than average human? okay... but is the average elf stronger than a halfling? i'd hope so, he's much bigger. Do you give halflings -4 strength? Are average males stronger than average females? i heard they were in 1st Edition.
if you werent using a point-buy system, perhaps a -1 str, +int/cha would work.

good luck, let us know what works/doesnt work
- Felnar

 

[lonesoldier]

"Why are they more likely to succumb to disease and poison?" - you'd think something that lives 500+ years should be almost disease immune.

Good point. Strength does seem like a better stat to decrease than Constitution, but Con is more important stat overall.

 

[Belgarath]

missing something

You guys are forgetting that the small races have half the carrying/lifting capacity as a medium sized creature. Sure, it might have the same number value, but the strength is still there.