Chaos Magic - the review.

[Psion]

I'm not one for Mongoose's flavor text stuff, myself. In the description of Necromancy, they say something to the effect of "The Necromantic arts are shunned throughout the lands of human, elf and dwarf, it's knowledge hidden and it's practitioners persecuted."

Really? Not in any campaign setting I've read or created so far.

Gee, in many that I have read and written.

Why are you trying to tell me something that is completely dependent on the world when your product isn't a campaign setting, nor setting specific?

Gee, you sound a lot like Bramadan in his review of Legions of Hell... and I find it a specious here as it is there. The very NATURE of the book is to provide you with ideas and material for your game. It doesn't have to be a campaign setting, but it has to make some suppositions if it intends to give you material that fits those assumptions. And Necromancy does a good job at that, I think. Otherwise, if you already have the entirety of what necromancers or seafaring elves are in your game, why are you buying the book.

 

[Kichwas]

Women look better than men as a matter of cultural indoctrination.

The ancient Athenians after all thought men looked better than women.

In fact they felt attraction to women was a lower form of it all than attraction to men. 'Relations' with women were done as a nessessity for continuing the family. At least in polite society. Being an actual heterosexual... well; that would be scandelous. For a man at least. Athenian women had no ability to even leave their homes from birth till death save when moving from father to husband so the very idea of lesbians would be unknown to them outside of incest.


But that wanders...


Suffice it to say that what is more beautiful is a matter of one's culture more than it is of biology.

 

[Kichwas]

Flavor text has to cater to something.

Might as well choose the 'default DnD' approach for it unless doing something setting specific. That or skip the flavor text altogether.

In the standard DnD view necromancy does tend to get lumped in with the bad guys. It is after all classed as 'negative energy'.

The elf thing seems to hold in that regard as well.


Though this is not so in my own campaign world in regards to Elves. As for necromancy it holds sort of true but it's a bit more complex and extends to a lot of the more powerful healing magic being considered negative energy as well.

However if we did the flavor text to match my home world a lot of people buying the books would wonder what the heck is going on.

Doing it to the 'default DnD worldview' just makes it more likely to match for the larger body of people's gaming experiences.

 

[bramadan]

Women look better than men as a matter of cultural indoctrination.

Athenian women had no ability to even leave their homes from birth till death save when moving from father to husband so the very idea of lesbians would be unknown to them outside of incest.

Given that this tread is already going all over the map...

It was not that bad in Athens as a a matter of fact. We know from Aristophanes' comedies that women did go to the theatre in Athens and from pottery we know they did attend the big civic ceremonies. They also supervised the slaves doing the shopping and could be seen a lot outside the house. Some even run their own business. Esencialy only places from which they were specificaly banned were agora with the assembly - even though they could be summoned as witnesses or even attend trials as spectators, as mentioned by Socrates in the Apology and the sporting events (because men competed nude).
Sure it was a patriarchal society but not much worse then most throughout the history. Definitely better then the medieval Japan or Russia.

Sorry for digression, classical Greece has always been my interest...

 

[Kichwas]

Most of those women you refer to were not citizens of Athens however.

Athenian citizens who were women didn't ever leave home.

A similar situation existed under the Chosun dynasty in Korea for women of the Yangban class (ruling scholarly class).

How did the topic get here again..?

 

[Olive]

Well, I don't say "this looks unbalanced" so much as "this looks like trouble." I don't think I ever said it was unbalanced per se ("I usually reserve that designation for something that is way too giving... like the vigilant in Relics & Rituals). In fact, if you look at my review, I said that it seems very well considered, but I also mentioned that it is very risky -- not just to the PC, but the campaign.

thanks heaps for the advice...what do you think of it as a potential for NPC opponents...used cleverly of course (not to throw CR12 fiends at a lvl 1 party...)

 

[bramadan]

Most of those women you refer to were not citizens of Athens however.

Athenian citizens who were women didn't ever leave home.

Sources ?

I believe that when Socrates says that most other Athenians-defendants would have brought their wife and kids to appear in-front of the judges he thinks of the wifes and kids of Athenian citizens. Also when Xhantippa appears in jail at the begining of Phaedo to beg her husband not to take hammlock that is another instance of higher class woman outside home. There is a lot of other examples in literature definitely implying that wifes of citizens did participate in civic (if not political) life. Ofcourse women could not by themselves hold citizenship so in a sense you are correct that no female Athenian citizen could be seen outside house, but that is because there were *no* female citizens.
Citizen's wife however could and did leave the house regularily.

 

[Claude Raines]

Women look better than men as a matter of cultural indoctrination.

The ancient Athenians after all thought men looked better than women.

In fact they felt attraction to women was a lower form of it all than attraction to men. 'Relations' with women were done as a nessessity for continuing the family. At least in polite society. Being an actual heterosexual... well; that would be scandelous. For a man at least. Athenian women had no ability to even leave their homes from birth till death save when moving from father to husband so the very idea of lesbians would be unknown to them outside of incest.


But that wanders...


Suffice it to say that what is more beautiful is a matter of one's culture more than it is of biology.

Lesbians unknown to the Greeks? When we get the word Lesbian from the Greeks? According to the Greeks, on the Island of Lesbos, all the women prefered women to men. The people who lived on that Island were called Lesbians.

Now this doesn't mean that the Greeks were right. Ancient cultures often misrepresented (and often on purpose) other cultures outside their own. Lesbians were definitely known to the Greeks just as they are known to all cultures, whether the practice is repressed or not.

Second, even though many Athenian men took young boys as lovers, the idea that heterosexual intercourse was only for procreation or that heterosexual behavior was somehow scandalaous is rediculous. I'm sure that many Athenians did love and desire women. In fact, the great love myths and stories are all heterosexual myths, not homosexual. The fact that homosexual practices were permitted in some aspect of Greek culture does not mean those same people shunned heterosexual activity except as a means of procreation.

Third, no society has ever penned up women to such an extent, not even the Taliban regime. It just isn't practical. Women have to go out and about to do many tasks. Not everybody can own slaves to take care of everything.

Finally, don't downplay the role of biology in what is considered beautiful. Certainly culture has a large and visible impact, but across every culture biology plays an important part in what we think is beautiful (why do you think heterosexual men as a group are attracted to large breasts - large breasts indicate they will be able to feed children meaning the healthy continuation of one's DNA). Biology also has a large impact on beauty and desire.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

quote:
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And I think a lot of women will agree with that Women _look_ far better than men, so when it comes to choosing artwork, what do you pick?
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When I passed your observations along to my friend Morgan, she gasped and said, "Why, it's true! How could I have been so blind!" Now she's gone off to become a lesbian, because if women are better looking than men, why should she waste her time with the men?

Ciaran is right on here.

For example, driving down the coast of California at sunset, with the mountains on one side and the ocean on the other, is perhaps the most beautiful thing I have ever seen.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go out and vigorously hump the vista, because apparently you cannot find something beautiful without wanting to f--- it.

Wulf