[Chaosium] Paladin • Warriors of Charlemagne

[aramis erak]

@Marc_C

I'm glad you're enjoying this system. I have a copy of Pendragon 5.2, and it's an elegant game.

But in these threads about knightly roleplaying, I am always obliged to point people to Prince Valiant if they're not familiar with it. I think it's now hard to find a copy but maybe not impossible - but if you want to RPG pseudo-historical knights I think it's unsurpassed.

I know that Greg Stafford favoured Pendragon over Prince Valiant, but I'm not sure he properly rated the genius of his own work.

Greg explicitly has stated that he loved PV more than Pendragon - the issue with getting it back in print wasn't lack of love, but lack of rights. Plus, more players preferring KAP over PV.

PV is firmly grounded in the storygames space. 2 attributes, dice pools of d2. It may or may not be brilliant, but it's definitely in a rules-space that I'm not comfortable in, and am unable to find willing players for.

Pendragon is, despite the physical space, a fairly light engine, and fairly simulationist... albeit of a reality that isn't ours.

 

[pemerton]

Greg explicitly has stated that he loved PV more than Pendragon

Interesting. Because in Pendragon 5.2 there is an essay from him describing that system as his proudest accomplishment. Which I had taken at face value: there's plenty there to be proud of!

PV is firmly grounded in the storygames space. 2 attributes, dice pools of d2. It may or may not be brilliant, but it's definitely in a rules-space that I'm not comfortable in, and am unable to find willing players for.

I have GMed a fair bit of Prince Valiant over the past two to three years. I don't really know what "storygame" means in this context - from my point of view it plays like a very light version of Burning Wheel, with fewer bells and whistles but very similar fundamentals in how actions are resolved. It absolutely baffles me that it's not much more widely played.

 

[aramis erak]

Interesting. Because in Pendragon 5.2 there is an essay from him describing that system as his proudest accomplishment. Which I had taken at face value: there's plenty there to be proud of!


I have GMed a fair bit of Prince Valiant over the past two to three years. I don't really know what "storygame" means in this context - from my point of view it plays like a very light version of Burning Wheel, with fewer bells and whistles but very similar fundamentals in how actions are resolved. It absolutely baffles me that it's not much more widely played.

The source IP is not well known in our generation and less so for younger.
The source IP is also not liked by a lot of those familiar with it. (myself included.)
The superlight rules space is not terribly popular.

And if you are getting results similar from it and BW, I have to wonder whether or not you're using anything but the hub for BW, BW isn't a rules-light game as intended (hub and spokes, minimum)

 

[pemerton]

The source IP is not well known in our generation and less so for younger.
The source IP is also not liked by a lot of those familiar with it. (myself included.)

The source IP of Prince Valiant figures in the game in the form of illustrations, one or two examples of how the game can play, and some sample NPCs that go for a few pages.

What's central to the game, based on my experience, is that Presence ranks equally with Brawn; which is to say that non-physical modes of action resolution are as feasible as physical ones. And the skill list, action resolution rules, and general tenor of the game all support reasonably light-hearted knight errantry or Robin Hood-ish play.

The superlight rules space is not terribly popular.

And if you are getting results similar from it and BW, I have to wonder whether or not you're using anything but the hub for BW, BW isn't a rules-light game as intended (hub and spokes, minimum)

Burning Wheel is not rules light. But the core action resolution of BW is pretty straightforward: a dice pool (modified by the fiction) against either an opposed roll or an obstacle (determined by the fiction). The core action resolution of Prince Valiant is the same. Their approaches to PC advancement are different; and BW is grittier. But that's part of what makes Prince Valiant play like BW-lite: it's lighter both mechanically and thematically.

There are also points of more detailed overlap: BW has Steel; Prince Valiant has Presence checks. BW has armour that protects you in combat but burdens your manoeuvres; so does Prince Valiant. In BW when you have conviction on your side you're earning artha to spend on bonus dice; in Prince Valiant having conviction on your side translates straight into bonus dice. Also, where BW has artha, Prince Valiant has Storyteller Certificates.

Also, for what it's worth, I wouldn't consider Prince Valiant superlight. That's a description I'd use for Cthulhu Dark.