What is often overseen in 5e is the Background. One of the best Backgrounds is "Criminal". It basically gives you a multiclass thief for the purpose of trap disarming and lockpicking. And it does not cost you anything, aka no level dip crap for purely mechanical reasons.There are some other Backgrounds which are as useful, depending on your class / party composition.5e is faster combat, more fluent gameplay and less headache on the table, whereas 3.5 / pathfinder has more Options as pointed out above but imho is better suited for computer games because all of the +x -y stuff. Bound accuracy leads to more realism aka low level Mobs are still a threat at least in numbers.5e compared to 3e is a bit like 2nd ed darksun compared to standard vanilla 2nd ed. You hit more often and you hit hard (and vice versa for the mobs) even without super optimized build and equipment. This makes combat intense and often shorter in number of rounds.
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D&D 5E Character Advancement versus Pathfinder
- Thread starter ShorelessSkies
- Start date
TheSword
Legend
I never really liked the Golarion setting. There were some cool areas but I found it basically the forgotten realms with a few modifications.
The big draw to Golarion are the adventure paths. Some of the early ones are very good, the later ones not so much. Though they are easily conveyed to 5e.
The big draw to Golarion are the adventure paths. Some of the early ones are very good, the later ones not so much. Though they are easily conveyed to 5e.
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The Crimson Binome
Hero
Not quite. Due to Bounded Accuracy, the bonus from your ability score is more important than the bonus from proficiency, especially at low levels. A cleric or wizard with a Criminal background will still be garbage at picking locks or disarming traps, even given the +2 proficiency bonus. Compared to the +7 bonus of a level 1 rogue, your +2 or +3 isn't going to make a dent in the d20 roll.
[MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] #22 I disagree:
1. Your examples of cleric and wizard which normally have poor dex are obviously not the best choices for the replacement rogue in the Party
Use a Ranger or a dex fighter and it is not much difference to a full fledged rogue. Perception is also needed for detecting of traps of course.
2. If you multiclass in a 3.5 like System you also have to distribute your skill ranks and attributes so you
3. will not be as skillful as a single class rogue in any of the two cases which is absolute fair game
1. Your examples of cleric and wizard which normally have poor dex are obviously not the best choices for the replacement rogue in the Party
Use a Ranger or a dex fighter and it is not much difference to a full fledged rogue. Perception is also needed for detecting of traps of course.
2. If you multiclass in a 3.5 like System you also have to distribute your skill ranks and attributes so you
3. will not be as skillful as a single class rogue in any of the two cases which is absolute fair game
The Crimson Binome
Hero
The question is whether there's any mechanical benefit to taking a particular background for most characters, and I would argue not, because that bonus you gain from proficiency is practically inconsequential. A difference of +2 on a d20 roll is something that will only matter one time in ten, which means you would have to try and disarm ten traps (on average) before the fact that you're trained would matter once. Sure, a ranger/criminal can try to pick a lock; but a ranger/noble can also try to pick a lock, and is almost exactly as good at it.
Backgrounds are a flavor thing. They aren't really a mechanical tool for character customization. Your actual competencies are defined by your ability modifiers.
TheSword
Legend
A Dex 14 cleric with lock picking proficiency is at +4 so will pick a DC 15 lock 50% of the time.
Without the skill proficiency they are picking the same lock on a 13 or more 40% of the time. That’s a 25% increase in lock pick success for a normal difficulty check. I’d say that’s a pretty good improvement.
On a DC 20 check it goes from a 15% chance to a 25% chance that’s a 66% improvement, albeit the odds are still against you. Advantage though is then putting you back near the 50-50 mark while at +2 you’re still a way off this.
I do agree with Saelorn that the backgrounds are primarily flavor. However flavor is extremely important to me and is one of the prime objectives I have in making a character. The true benefit of backgrounds to me is where you get to pick any skill when you duplicate. This actually gives you far more freedom about what to be good at that Pathfinder does because you don’t have the restriction of class skills.
[edited because I can’t count]
Without the skill proficiency they are picking the same lock on a 13 or more 40% of the time. That’s a 25% increase in lock pick success for a normal difficulty check. I’d say that’s a pretty good improvement.
On a DC 20 check it goes from a 15% chance to a 25% chance that’s a 66% improvement, albeit the odds are still against you. Advantage though is then putting you back near the 50-50 mark while at +2 you’re still a way off this.
I do agree with Saelorn that the backgrounds are primarily flavor. However flavor is extremely important to me and is one of the prime objectives I have in making a character. The true benefit of backgrounds to me is where you get to pick any skill when you duplicate. This actually gives you far more freedom about what to be good at that Pathfinder does because you don’t have the restriction of class skills.
[edited because I can’t count]
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TheSword
Legend
I tried to make a Witcher style character in Pathfinder using magus and alchemist, unfortunately the class needed so many skills didn’t have access to survival and tracking and didn’t synergies at all. He was a crappy fighter, a crappy alchemist and a crappy spell caster. I binned it off.
In 5e I can play a High Elf Eldritch Knight fighter archetype, with proficiency in Survival, Athletics and the outlander class that then duplicates these and let’s me take proficiency with Alchemist Kit and Arcana and all of a sudden I’m playing something decent. The proficiency system means if I haven’t dumped wisdom I can track, my race gives me great vision and perception proficiency, along with a spell I can cast at level 1.
Unlike pathfinder this build is fun to play and captures my theme right from day one rather than having to wait until level 5 or 7 to come into its own. Quite often Pathfinder builds at certain levels become monsters that then overshadow the rest of the party. You can spend X levels feeling inept, then the remaining levels making the rest of the party feel inept.
In 5e I can play a High Elf Eldritch Knight fighter archetype, with proficiency in Survival, Athletics and the outlander class that then duplicates these and let’s me take proficiency with Alchemist Kit and Arcana and all of a sudden I’m playing something decent. The proficiency system means if I haven’t dumped wisdom I can track, my race gives me great vision and perception proficiency, along with a spell I can cast at level 1.
Unlike pathfinder this build is fun to play and captures my theme right from day one rather than having to wait until level 5 or 7 to come into its own. Quite often Pathfinder builds at certain levels become monsters that then overshadow the rest of the party. You can spend X levels feeling inept, then the remaining levels making the rest of the party feel inept.
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[MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] principally what [MENTION=6879661]TheSword[/MENTION] also posted:
As far as i can remember you cannot even try to use lockpicks or trap disarm without rogue or other class Levels in 3.5 style Systems .
In 5e you can even try this unskilled. And if you look at #26 [MENTION=6879661]TheSword[/MENTION] seems to have overseen that Backgrounds are more than pure flavor.
My own PC is a Wood elf Archer ranger with 16 dex 16 wis.
Atm. Level 5 he got prof in Deception +2, insight +6, nature +3, Perception +6, Stealth +6, Survival +6, thieves Tools +6, gaming dice +6, with sleight of Hand still being +3 due to dex. Ok he does not have sneak attack or cunning Action, but he got SS and can heal himself with cure wounds spells.
Compared to a pure rogue he loses some on thieving skills but he is far more versatile and durable.
So he opens locks and detects / disarms traps with +6 each. And that is purely due to Background (and race for perception).
As far as i can remember you cannot even try to use lockpicks or trap disarm without rogue or other class Levels in 3.5 style Systems .
In 5e you can even try this unskilled. And if you look at #26 [MENTION=6879661]TheSword[/MENTION] seems to have overseen that Backgrounds are more than pure flavor.
My own PC is a Wood elf Archer ranger with 16 dex 16 wis.
Atm. Level 5 he got prof in Deception +2, insight +6, nature +3, Perception +6, Stealth +6, Survival +6, thieves Tools +6, gaming dice +6, with sleight of Hand still being +3 due to dex. Ok he does not have sneak attack or cunning Action, but he got SS and can heal himself with cure wounds spells.
Compared to a pure rogue he loses some on thieving skills but he is far more versatile and durable.
So he opens locks and detects / disarms traps with +6 each. And that is purely due to Background (and race for perception).
Iry
Hero
You can also play the Blood Hunter. It's essentially Witcher in playable format.
TheSword
Legend
Just had a look, it’s interesting. Our group doesn’t really use 3pp, so I try and stick to WOC stuff, so probably wouldn’t work for me. Which is cool because I find there is lots of flexibility baked into the system.
The other trope I’ve tried to work is the caster that can use a staff in combat and I’ve found a Druid of the Land with the Shillelagh spell is perfect for this (though it is almost impossible to replicate in Pathfinder)
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