Character Ascension, Morality, and Divinity (Was -- What makes someone Divine?)
Khorod
First Post
If life came from the clash of divine energies, maybe gathering enough life energies will turn the character into a divine sinkhole.
In other words, massive sacrifice and martyrs across the land. Or maybe when he ascends 10's of thousands die across the world, helping to stage a really nice and gray conflict to continue a campaign.
In other words, massive sacrifice and martyrs across the land. Or maybe when he ascends 10's of thousands die across the world, helping to stage a really nice and gray conflict to continue a campaign.
according to back-story, every attempt to ascend to divinity would result in a reduction in live.
As Khorod worte earlier, a mass sacrifice could do the job to lift someone to the position of a demi-god. The right rituals and laying waste to a continent should lift one to lesser-deity status. Half of all life should on your world should be required to lift someone to full divinity.
On the other hand-side, being immortal (not aging) in addition to being rather powerful and able to grant any one ability would count in the eyes of most people as being divine.
As Khorod worte earlier, a mass sacrifice could do the job to lift someone to the position of a demi-god. The right rituals and laying waste to a continent should lift one to lesser-deity status. Half of all life should on your world should be required to lift someone to full divinity.
On the other hand-side, being immortal (not aging) in addition to being rather powerful and able to grant any one ability would count in the eyes of most people as being divine.
Khorod
First Post
Are you asking about the metaphysical state of divinity in your world, or the cultural state?
ANY D&D cleric in Earth's history, even of first level, would be accounted a major saint, very much touched by god. Think of it this way- to your average 1st level character cure light wounds is almost as good as a Heal spell.
Anyone who passes a certain line in certain forms of magic could then be accounted divine. I think signs other than 'mundane' spellcasting should do this- like the simple touch of hands to heal wounds, or a soothing voice that simply calms the angry or bereaved.
If divinity is defined as the grace and altruism to aid others in tangible ways, not necessarily by raining down fire, Divinity is a combination of a few nice spells, intelligence, a tad of some sort of benevolence, and a good portion of showmanship. And the longer something exists, the more it transcends the impression of mortality, and the more likely it can present itself as a god.
ANY D&D cleric in Earth's history, even of first level, would be accounted a major saint, very much touched by god. Think of it this way- to your average 1st level character cure light wounds is almost as good as a Heal spell.
Anyone who passes a certain line in certain forms of magic could then be accounted divine. I think signs other than 'mundane' spellcasting should do this- like the simple touch of hands to heal wounds, or a soothing voice that simply calms the angry or bereaved.
If divinity is defined as the grace and altruism to aid others in tangible ways, not necessarily by raining down fire, Divinity is a combination of a few nice spells, intelligence, a tad of some sort of benevolence, and a good portion of showmanship. And the longer something exists, the more it transcends the impression of mortality, and the more likely it can present itself as a god.
Mordane76
First Post
In the world I'm developing, clerics aren't a core class -- they're a prestige class that can be taken around 4th level, and their progression of abilities is greatly limited. So I have to agree with the accordance of sainthood to most clerics and knights of the churches; they're a chosen few, sponsored into the clergy from the laity, brought into the mysteries of the faith. In this world, however, not even the churches know that the gods they worship don't exist -- but they are limited to casting 4th level cleric spells.
On the flip side, druids do not meet with this restriction, hence cleric becomes a decidedly flavored class in my world; people become clerics because they wish to be show they represent a belief structure, not so they can beat people over the head with a mace in the name of a god, while raining down his 'righteous' judgement (which, IMO, is how most clerics I've seen played come off). Any shmoe can do that...
Overall -- I like the great sacrifice. I also like the possibility of recovering the Kajh of Destruction (the orbs I referred to earlier) and somehow destroying them. Also, in my realm, there is an opposing set of Kajh, and I might work something in about those.
Here's a question, though -- does passing ones' self off as a god truly make one a god, or does it make one evil? Is not the act of deception (epsecially of this magnitude) so morally base and wrong?
On the flip side, druids do not meet with this restriction, hence cleric becomes a decidedly flavored class in my world; people become clerics because they wish to be show they represent a belief structure, not so they can beat people over the head with a mace in the name of a god, while raining down his 'righteous' judgement (which, IMO, is how most clerics I've seen played come off). Any shmoe can do that...
Overall -- I like the great sacrifice. I also like the possibility of recovering the Kajh of Destruction (the orbs I referred to earlier) and somehow destroying them. Also, in my realm, there is an opposing set of Kajh, and I might work something in about those.
Here's a question, though -- does passing ones' self off as a god truly make one a god, or does it make one evil? Is not the act of deception (epsecially of this magnitude) so morally base and wrong?
Khorod
First Post
take 2, first attempt being lost...
Does being believed to be a god have a metaphysical result in this world?
Other than that, if you're believed to be a god, you get free stuff from people who bow, and that's it.
The generic, culturally-stripped ethics of pretending to be a god make it a minor to moderate chaotic act, imo. You are lying to the purpose of shaking up the beliefs and world order of others around you. Adding a cultural element to this adds aspects of heresy and sin that could make it anything from irrelevant to one of the greatest of evil acts. That depends on the moral code of the cultures in question.
Does being believed to be a god have a metaphysical result in this world?
Other than that, if you're believed to be a god, you get free stuff from people who bow, and that's it.
The generic, culturally-stripped ethics of pretending to be a god make it a minor to moderate chaotic act, imo. You are lying to the purpose of shaking up the beliefs and world order of others around you. Adding a cultural element to this adds aspects of heresy and sin that could make it anything from irrelevant to one of the greatest of evil acts. That depends on the moral code of the cultures in question.
Mordane76
First Post
In our world -- no, it doesn't, and depending on your belief structure, it's anything from a laughable offense to a mortal sin unforgivable by God himself.
What I'm really trying to gauge are the feelings of respondents on what they think about that in a fantasy setting. Should the garnering of worshippers have any effect on ascension? Should the manner in which these worshippers are garnered have an affect on the type of god the character becomes?
What I'm really trying to gauge are the feelings of respondents on what they think about that in a fantasy setting. Should the garnering of worshippers have any effect on ascension? Should the manner in which these worshippers are garnered have an affect on the type of god the character becomes?
Khorod
First Post
Interesting thought for playing an ascending character: Just as a mortal's acts will stain his soul, a god's follower's acts will stain the gods.
Maybe what a mortal does in a god's name will effect the god. Maybe not his nature- that should be pretty immutable unless the gods are agents of chaos and distrusted.
But in a FR-like setting, if a god is followed by a horde of child-slaying cannibals, that would maybe affect his politics in the heavens. Whatever the good god says, its his fault if all his followers are psychotic evil-doers.
The popular way of linking the worship or actions of mortals to the power or nature of the gods is a frequently encountered convention. It allows gods to be made part of the story without divine warfare or death.
In a campaign setting like the one you've described that is not the sort of 'subtle' plot you'd need. Since gods are all but unknown, I think it would be interesting to add agnosticism and atheism to the mix, the tensions of a society dealing with gods, and so on. Those are things that are really hard to play with in most settings, since the gods are emphatically present.
Maybe what a mortal does in a god's name will effect the god. Maybe not his nature- that should be pretty immutable unless the gods are agents of chaos and distrusted.
But in a FR-like setting, if a god is followed by a horde of child-slaying cannibals, that would maybe affect his politics in the heavens. Whatever the good god says, its his fault if all his followers are psychotic evil-doers.
The popular way of linking the worship or actions of mortals to the power or nature of the gods is a frequently encountered convention. It allows gods to be made part of the story without divine warfare or death.
In a campaign setting like the one you've described that is not the sort of 'subtle' plot you'd need. Since gods are all but unknown, I think it would be interesting to add agnosticism and atheism to the mix, the tensions of a society dealing with gods, and so on. Those are things that are really hard to play with in most settings, since the gods are emphatically present.
