Character Generator

[Ranger REG]

If CS can accept user input, then YOU should be able to manually input the information from other Wizards' copyrighted works.

Otherwise, Twin Rose will have to ask permission from Wizards of the Coast (and maybe Infogrammes/Atari since they hold the electronic rights) to offer dataset based on Wizards' copyrighted works compatible to CS.

 

[Twin Rose]

If CS can accept user input, then YOU should be able to manually input the information from other Wizards' copyrighted works.

Otherwise, Twin Rose will have to ask permission from Wizards of the Coast (and maybe Infogrammes/Atari since they hold the electronic rights) to offer dataset based on Wizards' copyrighted works compatible to CS.

I won't be offering the Wizards of the Coast datasets in any capacity. I will be offering cross-compatiblity with etools and PCGen. I won't be selling, distributing, or in any other way touching those files. If they happen to be loadable like any other dataset, all well and good, but I myself won't be distributing, advertising, etc them.

 

[karianna]

I won't be offering the Wizards of the Coast datasets in any capacity. I will be offering cross-compatiblity with etools and PCGen. I won't be selling, distributing, or in any other way touching those files. If they happen to be loadable like any other dataset, all well and good, but I myself won't be distributing, advertising, etc them.

For those who care the PCGEN Board of Directors (for PCGEN and GMGEN) have decided to start the push to convert to XML. This _may_ mean we will look @ interoperability, but we do have to be careful as some datasets only have right to be in PCGEN whereas others (OGL ones) could conceivably be spread around all types of programs (an admirable goal)

Karianna
Tracker Monkey - BoD PCGEN

 

[Luke]

For those who care the PCGEN Board of Directors (for PCGEN and GMGEN) have decided to start the push to convert to XML. This _may_ mean we will look @ interoperability, but we do have to be careful as some datasets only have right to be in PCGEN whereas others (OGL ones) could conceivably be spread around all types of programs (an admirable goal)

Karianna,

Are you saying that if somebody purchases a dataset from CMP, they are restricted to not being able to use it in anything but ETools/PCGen?

That seems like an unreasonable and restricted trade practice.

Surely, if I pay for a CMP dataset, I can use it in any program that is able to import it.

If WotC/CMP have a dataset, and I purchase it, I wouldn't have thought that there should be any restrictions on how I use it, as long as I don't give copies of that information (one way or another) to other people ?

Anything beyond that is really supporting a monopoly in the way that Microsoft is infamous for (ie. their "decommoditizing protocols").

 

[Mynex]

Karianna,

Are you saying that if somebody purchases a dataset from CMP, they are restricted to not being able to use it in anything but ETools/PCGen?

That seems like an unreasonable and restricted trade practice.

Surely, if I pay for a CMP dataset, I can use it in any program that is able to import it.

If WotC/CMP have a dataset, and I purchase it, I wouldn't have thought that there should be any restrictions on how I use it, as long as I don't give copies of that information (one way or another) to other people ?

Anything beyond that is really supporting a monopoly in the way that Microsoft is infamous for (ie. their "decommoditizing protocols").

1) Karianna doesn't speak for CMP - You should have addressed this to Merton Monk, Lone Jedi or myself...

2) How a user uses the data IS up to them... That's not the issue here.

The Issue is simple - We're talking about closed content material from WotC.

Given the tone that I've seen from a few people that make software for pay (or 'donation'), and their desire to 'import' CMP data sets, circumventing having to obtain a license, I'm starting to lean very heavily to encrypting said data sets very heavily.

Nothing wrong with importing the SRD/OGC material that PCGen uses, nothing to prohibit it either, which is the nice thing about the OGL... Chris imports the character sheets from PCGen and e-Tools, and there's nothing wrong with that... he's not importing the data directly, and he's dealing with final numbers... so he's not 'stealing' the hard work of the volunteers from PCGen to 'fuel his program'... and he's not 'stealing' the data from e-Tools either... the final character is is what he's using to track things in CS...

We're talking about someones Intellectual Property (WotC's) and how _THEY_ decide to have that information presented, so please refrain from screaming monopoly at CMP, we're licensee's, we have rights to protect.

 

[Luke]

1) Karianna doesn't speak for CMP - You should have addressed this to Merton Monk, Lone Jedi or myself...

Karianna made a statement about "datasets only have right to be in PCGEN", which seems very odd, and I queried her on it. No big deal.

2) How a user uses the data IS up to them... That's not the issue here.
...
Given the tone that I've seen from a few people that make software for pay (or 'donation'), and their desire to 'import' CMP data sets, circumventing having to obtain a license, I'm starting to lean very heavily to encrypting said data sets very heavily.

Nothing wrong with importing the SRD/OGC material that PCGen uses, nothing to prohibit it either, which is the nice thing about the OGL...

We're talking about someones Intellectual Property (WotC's) and how _THEY_ decide to have that information presented, so please refrain from screaming monopoly at CMP, we're licensee's, we have rights to protect.

But how a user uses the datasets is the issue. What you're talking about is forcing forcing users to use the data in a particular way (ie via PCGen).

If CMP produce a dataset and charge me for it, then thats fine, and there are no licensing issues.

IF CMP take it a step further, and encrypt it so that only PCGen can use the dataset, then its going further than it needs to - for reasons that have nothing to do with licensing.

In fact, PCGen is one of the most large and active open source projects housed on SourceForge. Its all built around great open source concepts, which make it particularly strange that CMP would introduce and support a concept being the only app to work with a secret and proprietory data format.
There is a very distinct parallel here (intentional or not) with what Microsoft tried to do with Java. They tried to modify Java so that there was a "Microsoft flavour" to it, which would mean that certain applications would only work with Microsoft technology (and eventually Microsoft would dominate and "own" Java). Sun saw through, fought it tooth and nail, and eventually won.

I'm not trying to inflame you. I'm simply surprised at the intentions, and trying to get them clarified and explained.

The point is that the hard work and the effort and the right-to-use royalty for a WOTC dataset isn't paid for by using the dataset in PCGen. Its paid for by paying for the dataset.
Making a dataset PCGen-only doesn't help enforce licensing in any way, since anybody can download and use a copy of PCGen. All it does is to limit the usefulness of the datasets, reduce the potential market for CMP sales, and try to enforce a PCGen monopoly for WOTC datasets.


Look at it another way:
Lets say CMP were actually producing PDF files of WOTC IP for sale. Ordinarily that would mean that anybody can pay for their PDF and use their favourite PDF viewer. This is how the RPG PDF industry works.

Except that you then encrypt the PDF so that people can only use your own special PCgenPDFviewer to make it work. Now, although the PCgenPDFviewer is freely available to anyone, perhaps some people find it slow, buggy, and just hard plain to use.
I'm a customer, and I've paid my money for the PDF. Why should I have to use the PCgenPDFviewer, if I'd prefer something else????
The open source team producing PCgenPDFviewer may be just as mystified at the situation saying "We've got no idea why we're supporting and encouraging an closed proprietory format - we actually believe in open source ideals!".

If CMP have created a business in publishing WOTC IP, then doesn't it make sense to maximise the marketing potential to both CMP and WotC, as well as provide the product to the wider RPG community?
I can tell you that whilst PCGen is a fantastic effort, there is a *definite* segment of the RPG community that just don't want to use PCGen (for whatever reason). Why would you try and force those people to either use the *free* PCGen, or abandon using certain WotC datasets?
Why would you deliberately encrypt what they pay for, to make it useless to them by limiting it to whatever PCGen does?

See what I mean? I just find the logic behind it all fairly hard to follow.
There may well be good reasons, and I'd be pleased to hear them.

Regards,

 

[Luke]

I just reread this bit...

We're talking about someones Intellectual Property (WotC's) and how _THEY_ decide to have that information presented.

If the answer is:

"WotC insist that their datasets are only usable to PCGen, so there's nothing we can do about it".

... then fine. That's the answer!

I may have got thrown of course a bit by what seemed like your personal decision to perhaps encrypt.

If its just WotC's will, then thats it. It is their IP after all. Perhaps they just need time to adjust to the concept of paper publishing to electronic publishing, so that they can then maximize their marketing potential by being more inclusive...

Regards,

 

[smetzger]

Mynex, I raised the possibility of 4th party electronic publishers using the data sets in their utilities on the CMP E-Tools boards a long time ago. In fact I petitioned for CMP to gather some of the other programers producing D&D software together to see if a universal format could be agreed upon. The response at that time was favorable, although you guys were not ready at that time to discuss format details.

Considering your response, I have some questions.

1) Has WOTC specified license terms for the end user for the data sets? Has there already been a decision made about this? Or are you raising the possibility of making such a decision?

2) If you do decide to restrict the datasets to be used by PCGen and E-Tools. How will you define what exactly PCGen is? Since PCGen is open source, couldn't someone fork the PCGen code and use part or all of it(they would of course have to follow the open source license that PCGen uses)?

Thank You,
Scott Metzger

 

[Tir Gwaith]

Karianna made a statement about "datasets only have right to be in PCGEN", which seems very odd, and I queried her on it. No big deal.

From a OGL distrubtor PoV. Right now we (PCGen) have several sources with special permission for PI from various publisers (Malhavoc and SSS spring to mind.) They have granted use of those PI's in _PCGEN_. I as a distributor can't turn a blind eye towards others using the datasets that have that PI without covering my tail for the special permission I have from those I have special permissions from. We asked for permission in PCGen, not in LST format.. That may or may not get the same permissions from publishers. *shrug* As it stands NOW, we don't have the right to distribute that if we know it can be used in other means. Not in good faith.

 

[smetzger]

From a OGL distrubtor PoV. Right now we (PCGen) have several sources with special permission for PI from various publisers (Malhavoc and SSS spring to mind.) They have granted use of those PI's in _PCGEN_. I as a distributor can't turn a blind eye towards others using the datasets that have that PI without covering my tail for the special permission I have from those I have special permissions from. We asked for permission in PCGen, not in LST format.. That may or may not get the same permissions from publishers. *shrug* As it stands NOW, we don't have the right to distribute that if we know it can be used in other means. Not in good faith.

But PCGen is open source correct? Or is there an encryption part of PCGen that reads these datasets and is closed?
What is to prevent someone from taking the PCGen code and the data and writing a very lite program for a hand held device, which I believe has already been done?

Since PCGen is Open Source I find it hard to believe that you can lock it down in this way. Your using the GNU license, correct? Wouldn't that allow someone to take the code make some modifications and make there own distro? Are you distributing a license agreement with your source code that would prevent someone from using it to read these specially licensed files?

This is all with the very important caveat that only CMP would be the source of the actual data. Any other programs that happened to use the data would need to point users to get data from CMP.

Thank You,
Scott Metzger