Character Generator

[Hollywood]

Given the tone that I've seen from a few people that make software for pay (or 'donation'), and their desire to 'import' CMP data sets, circumventing having to obtain a license, I'm starting to lean very heavily to encrypting said data sets very heavily.

Encyptions can be broken, big deal. Then again, why encrypt the data sets, if they ever get distributed, when WotC through Fluid never even bothered to password protect (not that it'd do much good anyways) the Access database used in eTools? How much non-SRD material was in the database I don't know as I only took a brief look before I fell of my chair laughing.

As to whether PCGen could use it, yes, they've released SpaghettiGen as LGPL so could include an encryption that is LGPL or closed license with it without having to redistribute the library's source.

And Scott, isn't there already a D20 XML yahoo group thats been around for some time and has yet to finish anything up? Its easy to use catch phrases, actually hard to do things with them correctly. Twi Rose software is supposedly converting to XML and made some mention of allowing others to use it for interoperability. However, I've yet to see him make the DTD or Schema public.

 

[Twin Rose]

Well, really, isn't a file format completely seperate from the code used to interpret it?


They released all their old TSR stuff on PDF, for sale at RPGNow. You can use PDF on Adobe, word, and countless other programs, even small third-party ones. Does this mean that the individual PDF readers are somehow responsible for the data that gets parsed? I think no.

 

[Hollywood]

They released all their old TSR stuff on PDF, for sale at RPGNow. You can use PDF on Adobe, word, and countless other programs, even small third-party ones. Does this mean that the individual PDF readers are somehow responsible for the data that gets parsed? I think no.

Yes, but that depends too on the license to the data. If the license does not give any stipulations, i.e. the PDFs for same from Wizards, then the user can pretty much use the data any way he sees fit for personal use, in any format he can convert it to, etc. If the license is a bit more restrictive, ala some of the digital rights based music files (which are a joke) then no, the user has only bought the rights to use the data for x amount of time, or in x number of formats on x platforms. So if the datapacks are bought by the user with a liberal license then the user can pretty much use the data with anything thats able to read and manipulate it. If the license says that this data is only available to be used in program x and y, then the user would be in violation of the license if used in program z. Frankly if the license is restricted to x and y, then I hope no one buys it. But then again I would hope no one would buy bad products, of any sort, but people still do.

 

[Tir Gwaith]

But PCGen is open source correct? Or is there an encryption part of PCGen that reads these datasets and is closed?
What is to prevent someone from taking the PCGen code and the data and writing a very lite program for a hand held device, which I believe has already been done?

PCGen LST Files are distributed under the OGL. That is what I have to make a basis for. The fact that PCGen is open source via the LGPL does NOT cover the data sets. The data sets are strictly OGL (with caveats for the special licenses we have). It is the special permissions that we have to safeguard, along with the goodwill of the users that volunteer their time to do the datasets. We are realizing we need stronger protections for those users, since technically, they do own the copyright on them, and we are working to correct that, for both a CYA, and a protection for them.

Scott, I thought you of all people would understand that, since you made a big deal about it last year.

Since PCGen is Open Source I find it hard to believe that you can lock it down in this way. Your using the GNU license, correct? Wouldn't that allow someone to take the code make some modifications and make there own distro? Are you distributing a license agreement with your source code that would prevent someone from using it to read these specially licensed files?

PCGen itself uses the LGPL. However, use of datasets is subject to the OGL. There are some points in there, that I, as a maintainer and distributor (via the PCGen part 2 of 3, and soon in part 1 of 3 as well), have to take into consideration so that I can't be help liable for misuse from my distribution. Look at the whole Napster and Progeny court precedents. Just because someone else uses the files as not permissioned, does NOT clear me of all legal responsibility. That point isn't up for debate (unless you are my lawyer.)

This is all with the very important caveat that only CMP would be the source of the actual data. Any other programs that happened to use the data would need to point users to get data from CMP.

Um.. _I_ wasn't talking about CMP. I don't and can't speak for CMP. I am a board member of PCGen, a separate group. We, PCGen, have to take that into consideration before making it possible for anyone to use the datafiles (esp. if we go to XML.) We are talking about covering ourselves, not 'We want to force everyone to use PCGen.' CMP doesn't have an exclusive license to release PCGen datafiles. One just needs the permission of the IP holder, which CMP has via a special licence from Wizards for the Wizards content.

Now, using CMP datasets, and claiming compatibility with CMP datasets, you'd need permission from CMP and perhaps Wizards on. Those are NOT released under the OGL, so the OGL safe harbor will not protect you.

 

[Twin Rose]

Um.. _I_ wasn't talking about CMP. I don't and can't speak for CMP. I am a board member of PCGen, a separate group. We, PCGen, have to take that into consideration before making it possible for anyone to use the datafiles (esp. if we go to XML.) We are talking about covering ourselves, not 'We want to force everyone to use PCGen.' CMP doesn't have an exclusive license to release PCGen datafiles. One just needs the permission of the IP holder, which CMP has via a special licence from Wizards for the Wizards content.

So, noone claims compatibility with PCGen, sounds pretty straightforward to me.

 

[Hollywood]

As it stands NOW, we don't have the right to distribute that if we know it can be used in other means. Not in good faith.

Then don't distribute anything. Data can and will be used if its put out into the public domain one way or another. Thats been proven over and over again. The only way to keep the data secure is to lock it up behind closed doors and make it accessible only in small chunks and even then someone with enough time and patience (and possibly cost) may be able to put it all together.

 

[smetzger]

Um.. _I_ wasn't talking about CMP. I don't and can't speak for CMP. I am a board member of PCGen, a separate group. We, PCGen, have to take that into consideration before making it possible for anyone to use the datafiles (esp. if we go to XML.) We are talking about covering ourselves, not 'We want to force everyone to use PCGen.' CMP doesn't have an exclusive license to release PCGen datafiles. One just needs the permission of the IP holder, which CMP has via a special licence from Wizards for the Wizards content.

Ok, now I am confused. I thought that CMP was doing the 'distro' for PCGen. Am I wrong in this assumption?

My point is... if CMP and WOTC want to restrict the data files to only be used in ETools and PCGen. What is the definition of PCGen for this license?

Once again, I am not advocating anyone but CMP distribute the WOTC IP data files. I am just inquiring what the end user license will be for those data files and pointing out some possible weird scenarios that could result due to any such license. I am in dialog with Mynex off line.

Thank You,
Scott Metzger

 

[kingpaul]

Ok, now I am confused. I thought that CMP was doing the 'distro' for PCGen. Am I wrong in this assumption?

CMP has rights to distribute PCGen data sets for the WotC closed-content books, Malhavoc's AU, and a couple other publishers (can't recall off of the top of my head). PCGen distributes data sets themselves of OGC material, and we have received permission from publishers to include their PI in our datasets.

 

[smetzger]

So, who has the right for the 'distro' of the official PCGen program? Is it the PCGen team or is it CMP?

The OGL datasets are licensed under the OGL and a user can redistribute these datasets under the OGL. No, need to do weird things to protect that content. PDF producers don't do anything.

Is there a license included when these files with IP content are downloaded? If so, what does the license say?
If there is no such license included in the download, then the end user can use those files for whatever he wants to (as long as he doesn't re-distribute them). He could print them out and wallpaper his room or he could use parse them and input the data into another program.

Thank You,
Scott Metzger

 

[kingpaul]

So, who has the right for the 'distro' of the official PCGen program? Is it the PCGen team or is it CMP?

PCGen currently distributes files, and they can be found at http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/. CMP will be distributing PCGen data sets of Bastion Press, Fast Forward Entertainment, Malhavoc Press and WotC.

Is there a license included when these files with IP content are downloaded?

Do you mean PI? If so, that info is included in the *.pcc with the LICENSED and LICENSE tags.