Charge question

[DarkLord Of DForce]

Couldn't help but raise my eyebrows when I read vorpal at level 8, but I assume you mean vanguard.

Wednesday Boy is correct on the charge square issue. You can go from 0 to 1, via 7-4, 7-5, 8-4, 8-5, or even 9-5. They are all legal.

Actually I did say Vorpal. Try to understand how this came about. We've been switching DMs per module in the War Of The Burning Sky Campaign. This has actually been kinda fun, but its also raised a few issues. (I probably should break this off into a new thread). Anyways, the first DM gave his own character a freaking dragon. Ugh. Well, when it came to be my turn to DM I let him know that I wasn't going to let this dragon overly affect combat. He just smiled. I kow what he was thinking. I really hate to take something away from a player once they have it, just seems like bad form and all that. So in various combats where this player tried to use his dragon, he had problems with getting his wings caught in an overhead canopy once, and also got mired down in quicksand another time. I think the player figured it out because he's not tried to use the dragon in combat since then. Anyways, to the point about the bugbear. This same DM allowed the bugbear player to have a Vorpal weapon, just adjusting its attack bonus to +2, which is appropriate for our level (8). However, he did nothing for the special effect. Now I'm DM'ing this module, and I actually got to look up Vorpal and realized that our 8th level Bugbear was using a lev30 item! At best, following guidelines, this shouldn't have been available until lev26, IMHO. So the next session, since I hate to take anything back, I'm gonna rule that it stays at +2 prof., and that in Heroic level, it will only allow -1- damage dice re-roll if its maxed instead of every dice. Then at Paragon, he can have 2 dice rerolls, then 3 at epic, and finally, the full benefit at lev26, which is where he normally would have gotten it.

Oh, and we put the first DM naked in the swamp for 3 days, chained up, with a sign that says "Free food - tastes just like chicken!"...

Does this sound pretty fair to everyone? Thanks.

 

[Dan'L]

While the advice you've been given is pretty much spot-on, I thought I might point out an option you might give the player if he wants to be able to legally use this tactic in the future.

It requires two feats, one of them at paragon tier, so it's not an immediate solution: one feat to MC as a rogue, and the second to pick up Roundabout Charge from Martial Power (note, he'll also need Acrobatics training as a pre-req for RC)

Roundabout Charge lets the PC charge to any square adjacent to the target, so each square of movement must always move closer to that square.

-Dan'L

 

[Mengu]

Does this sound pretty fair to everyone? Thanks.

With an execution axe, it's 10% chance of explosion per die. He's not likely to get more than 1 per damage roll anyway, at heroic (for 2[W] powers it's 1% chance both dice will explode). He'd be lucky to get 2 at paragon, etc. The added complexity doesn't seem worthwhile. I'd say just leave it be, and keep playing. If he was using a Gouge or something, I'd say hold those horses.

If you feel you must do something about it (in case they get clever and try to transfer enchantment to a gouge or the like), just make the property an encounter power. Once per encounter when you roll max, it explodes. Call it "Lesser Vorpal Weapon". That should be fine for a level 8'ish weapon.

 

[mudlock]

Actually I did say Vorpal.
... So the next session, since I hate to take anything back, I'm gonna rule that it stays at +2 prof., and that in Heroic level, it will...

Just turn it into a vicious weapon. Starts with the same letter, still does d12s on crits... who could tell the difference!

 

[mneme]

Frankly, I don't have that much problem with a vorpal axe (or even gouge) at level 6. Call it a rare item -- but you can push the power curve a -lot- without breaking stuff. Consider that in 3.5, we spent most of the campaign (1-17) with a box that would let you double-shrink things and people permanently (until dismissed or dispelled) (so all our casters were getting +4 to hit and AC) and a sword that could cut through solid stone and let us pull all sorts of crazy shenatigans. A sword that gives you a mere +.5 or so per die (iirc this is always what it gives, -regardless- of die size, until you manage brutal, and even then it has to be brutal on a a small die to really matter) doesn't even rank.
[ Ok, not quite. I forgot about the +1 on the initial equasion, eg:
let X = the die size
let Y(X) = average damage for a vorpal weapon with a die size of X.
The average damage for a vorpal weapon (no brutal) =
(X+1/2) + 1/X (chance of rolling max) * (Y(X)).

If you do a bit of algebra, you get the damage being the sum of two infinite series: [** is to the power of, for non programmers]
(X+1)*sum(1/2X**Z as Z goes from 0 to infinity)

This is about where I run out of math, though; I mean, we know that the convergence of powers of 2 is 1 -- so if we calculate this for flipping a coin(d2), we get: 3*sum(convergence of powers of 2), so an average of 3 (1.5 up from the normal average of a d2 of 1.5).

It's easy to tell that the convergence will go down with die size, so the -maximum- you can get per die (without brutal) is that 1.5 on a d2. With a quick perl program [sub conv { my ($root,$sum,$count,$max) = @_; $count++;$count > $max and return $sum; return conv($root, $sum + 1/($root ** ($count)),$count,$max) } for(1..12) { print "$_: ",conv($_,0,0,5000),"\n"}] I can hand you the converce of any die size, and they decend radically as die size decreases. So:

2: 1
4: 1/3
6: 1/5
8:.14
10: 1/9
12: 1/11

]


Regarding charging:

Roundabout Charge doesn't do anything any more. It was written to change the rules that said you had to pick a square that was "closest" and charge to there -- but you don't have to do that any more. It doesn't directly override the rule about each step taking you closer, so it doesn't. (a fine house rule would be to say that you could pick a square closest to the target and ignore the "each step taking you closer" rule. A much better house rule for Roundabout, IMO, would be "your charge may include any movement whatsover -- except that the last two squares moved must take you closer to the target". This would mean that you could make "roundabout" charges with this feat, where you went in a little circle or whatnot -- but it would still feel like a charge, as the last two steps would be a functional charge.

No, the charge through the creature is pure shenigans. See above.

I'll note, btw, that while the rationale has changed, it's still technically possible for a creature to be two squares away from an enemy and still be unable to legally charge it. If you're at 0,0, and the critters at 3,3, with blocking terrain or enemies on 2,2 and 1,1 (or even better, a large block covering the four squares in the center), you cannot charge, as even though 0,0 to 0,1 takes you effectively closer(4 squares of movement away to 3 squares), you "count through blocking terrain" so it's not a legal charge movement. Personally, I'd rule this the other way just out of fairness, but @DracoSuave (to pick someone who I know runs strictly by the book) would almost certainly disallow it.

 

[DracoSuave]

but [MENTION=71571]DracoSuave[/MENTION] (to pick someone who I know runs strictly by the book) would almost certainly disallow it.

I wouldn't be giving level 6 characters the ability to charge through enemies and ignore attacks of opportunity either.

'Even if they WERE a charging build.

Tho do note: I don't run games strictly RAW, I just argue strict RAW in RAW debates. There's strict RAW interpretations I don't personally like or use... but that's what my nice pleasent cottage in house rule country is for.

 

[SSquirrel]

I wouldn't be giving level 6 characters the ability to charge through enemies and ignore attacks of opportunity either.

'Even if they WERE a charging build.

Tho do note: I don't run games strictly RAW, I just argue strict RAW in RAW debates. There's strict RAW interpretations I don't personally like or use... but that's what my nice pleasent cottage in house rule country is for.

Halfling w/the Underfoot feat and a Badge of the Berserker. He can charge thru a pair of giants and attack the 3rd one. He can't stop on the far side of one and have them be the target of a charge, but there are legal ways to do the charging thru enemies w/o OAs

EDIT: Admittedly Underfoot is Paragon. What gear/feat at heroic lets you charge thru people? I know Badge of the Berserker can let you ignore OAs. I have a Rogue w/a charging build and I'm currently trying to make my DM understand the whole charges not being straight lines, just have to get closer to the target w/each step.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

With an execution axe, it's 10% chance of explosion per die. He's not likely to get more than 1 per damage roll anyway, at heroic (for 2[W] powers it's 1% chance both dice will explode). He'd be lucky to get 2 at paragon, etc. The added complexity doesn't seem worthwhile. I'd say just leave it be, and keep playing. If he was using a Gouge or something, I'd say hold those horses.

If you feel you must do something about it (in case they get clever and try to transfer enchantment to a gouge or the like), just make the property an encounter power. Once per encounter when you roll max, it explodes. Call it "Lesser Vorpal Weapon". That should be fine for a level 8'ish weapon.

Forgot to mention this, but because he's a bugbear, I believe he is using a large execution axe. So its 2 d6's. which makes the brutal 2 and vorpal effect much more effective, IMHO.

 

[Dan'L]

Roundabout Charge doesn't do anything any more. It was written to change the rules that said you had to pick a square that was "closest" and charge to there -- but you don't have to do that any more. It doesn't directly override the rule about each step taking you closer, so it doesn't.

This is not entirely true. It may be your understanding for the intention of the feat, but the wording of the feat supports other interpretations:

ROUNDABOUT CHARGE
...
Benefit: When you charge, you can end your movement in any square adjacent to the target from which you can attack it.

Even under the old rule for charging, this did more than simply allow stepping adjacent when you wielded a pole arm; it allowed you to charge to the opposite side of the enemy (if you so desired & had enough movement) to attack from there.

Under the new charge rules, I'd say it's a reasonable interpretation to allow the charge movement to always need to move closer to the final square of attack instead of only closer to the target of the attack at the end of the movement. Instead of charging the target, you're charging to a square adjacent to the target, spinning and tumbling with great agility to transform the inertia of your movement into extra "oomph" on the attack.

It's a Paragon feat; it is certainly not the most powerful of Paragon tier feats available (and it is far from the most problematic thing related to charge optimization builds.) By Paragon level, feats are starting to break the rules in such a way as to allow PCs to do more "super human" style actions such as charging, nimbly spinning around and re-directing the inertia of the mad dash, and thus managing to transfer the power of the charge into an attack even though it isn't "direct."

Also, the feat includes a pre-requisite skill training in Acrobatics, which plays into this kind of cinematic flavor.

No, the charge through the creature is pure shenigans. See above.

Of course it's shenanigans. It's that action-movie wire-fu stylish flash of deadly grace captured in a square-gridded tactical game, and someone's spending a large chunk of their character sheet resources to model the kewlness of it.

If you want to tone it down, look at Badge of the Berserker (available in heroic tier!) and/or whatever it is that's allowing the passing through the enemies' spaces.

If you don't want to tone it down, and want to say "yes" and enable a player to have their fun, then point out that they can, if they choose, spend two more feat slots and by 11th level they can do what they wanted to do.

-Dan'L

 

[Vadriar]

Using the phone keypad as an example, starting at 0 and needing to move to 1, your first choice can be 7 or 8.

If 7, you can then only pick 4
If 8, you can then pick 4 or 5

Some people get confused because they believe that in the above instance, the only choice would be 7 because 4 is closer to 1 than 5, but in reality they are the same distance because being at 4 or 5 is considered the same.

Actually, from 7 you could also pick 5. It is the same distance to 1 as 4, one hop.

This is because 4e uses Chebyshev distance.

Which is also how you can charge around an enemy and still take the shortest path to an enemy behind him.

Also why fireballs are square on the grid. And also why square rooms are actually round.

But to answer the topic starter's question, I'd rule that he couldn't do that, because each step of the charge needs to take him closer, and at one point he is in the creature's space and then leaves, increasing his distance to it from 0 to 1.