Charging and Balancing

[afbeer]

Hi,
there is this table in the Balance skill description that assigns DC10 balance checks for running or charging across various difficult surfaces.

Is this difficult terrain from the combat chapter, which doubles the movement cost?

afbeer

 

[kreynolds]

I would assume so, based on the terminology. You cannot normally run or charge over difficult terrain...

Difficult Terrain: Difficult terrain hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. (Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares.) You can’t run or charge across difficult terrain.

...but a successful Balance check allows you to do so.

 

[frankthedm]

I would assume so, based on the terminology. You cannot normally run or charge over difficult terrain...

...but a successful Balance check allows you to do so.

Not exactly. A successful balance check ONLY allows charging over Uneven flagstone, a Hewn stone floor or a Sloped or angled floor. And it looks like that one ONLY gets to use balance to enable a charge down the slope. In all other instances difficult terrain still negates charging.


Uneven Flagstone
Over time, some floors can become so uneven that a DC 10 Balance check is required to run or charge across the surface. Failure means the character can’t move in this round. Floors as treacherous as this should be the exception, not the rule.

Hewn Stone Floors
Rough and uneven, hewn floors are usually covered with loose stones, gravel, dirt, or other debris. A DC 10 Balance check is required to run or charge across such a floor. Failure means the character can still act, but can’t run or charge in this round.

Gradual Slope
This incline isn’t steep enough to affect movement, but characters gain a +1 bonus on melee attacks against foes downhill from them.

Steep Slope
Characters moving uphill (to an adjacent square of higher elevation) must spend 2 squares of movement to enter each square of steep slope. Characters running or charging downhill (moving to an adjacent square of lower elevation) must succeed on a DC 10 Balance check upon entering the first steep slope square. Mounted characters make a DC 10 Ride check instead. Characters who fail this check stumble and must end their movement 1d2×5 feet later. Characters who fail by 5 or more fall prone in the square where they end their movement. A steep slope increases the DC of Tumble checks by 2.

 

[kreynolds]

Not exactly. A successful balance check ONLY allows charging over Uneven flagstone, a Hewn stone floor or a Sloped or angled floor.

Correct me if I am wrong, but what you are saying is that you cannot walk across uneven flagstone, but if you make a successful Balance check, you can run or charge across it, but still cannot walk?

 

[frankthedm]

Correct me if I am wrong, but what you are saying is that you cannot walk across uneven flagstone, but if you make a successful Balance check, you can run or charge across it, but still cannot walk?

I will correct you. You don't even need to roll a balance check if you are walking or hustling across those surfaces. You move at your normal speed over uneven flagstone and hewn stone floors.

Specifically I was saying balance won't help one charge or run over the vast majority of difficult terrain. Hell steep slopes are the only terrain covered by balance that is the speed reducing difficult terrain.

 

[kreynolds]

I will correct you. You don't even need to roll a balance check if you are walking or hustling across those surfaces. You move at your normal speed.

Right, but I wasn't suggesting otherwise. The passage I quoted from the SRD was in regards to running or charging over difficult terrain. I was not referring to walking. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. :\

Specifically I was saying balance won't help one charge or run over the vast majority of difficult terrain.

Honestly, it looks like balance will help you the majority of the time. All three of the four terrain types you quoted below where balance applies (uneven flagstone, hewn stone floors, steep slope) specifically indicate that a successful Balance check will allow you to run or charge across these surfaces. Is that not the majority?

Uneven Flagstone
Over time, some floors can become so uneven that a DC 10 Balance check is required to run or charge across the surface. Failure means the character can’t move in this round. Floors as treacherous as this should be the exception, not the rule.

Hewn Stone Floors
Rough and uneven, hewn floors are usually covered with loose stones, gravel, dirt, or other debris. A DC 10 Balance check is required to run or charge across such a floor. Failure means the character can still act, but can’t run or charge in this round.

Gradual Slope
This incline isn’t steep enough to affect movement, but characters gain a +1 bonus on melee attacks against foes downhill from them.

Steep Slope
Characters moving uphill (to an adjacent square of higher elevation) must spend 2 squares of movement to enter each square of steep slope. Characters running or charging downhill (moving to an adjacent square of lower elevation) must succeed on a DC 10 Balance check upon entering the first steep slope square. Mounted characters make a DC 10 Ride check instead. Characters who fail this check stumble and must end their movement 1d2×5 feet later. Characters who fail by 5 or more fall prone in the square where they end their movement. A steep slope increases the DC of Tumble checks by 2.

 

[frankthedm]

Honestly, it looks like balance will help you the majority of the time. All three of the four terrain types you quoted below where balance applies (uneven flagstone, hewn stone floors, steep slope) specifically indicate that a successful Balance check will allow you to run or charge across these surfaces. Is that not the majority?

I finished cleaning up my post above. What I was address was only one of those, the steep slope was actual movement reducing difficult terrain. Those other ones are not the costs 2 square to enter difficult terrain.

I was trying to make sure no one who read this...
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would think a balance check would let them charge over dense rubble, Natural Stone Floors, undergrowth, shallow bogs or most other speed reducing terrain.

 

[kreynolds]

I was trying to make sure no one who read this...
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would think a balance check would let them charge over dense rubble, Natural Stone Floors, undergrowth, shallow bogs or most other speed reducing terrain.

I still don't follow. Where does it state you cannot charge or run across speed reducing terrain with a successful Balance check?

 

[The Blow Leprechaun]

I still don't follow. Where does it state you cannot charge or run across speed reducing terrain with a successful Balance check?

Use tactical movement for combat. Characters generally don’t walk during combat—they hustle or run. A character who moves his or her speed and takes some action is hustling for about half the round and doing something else the other half.

Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles, or poor visibility can hamper movement. When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.

If more than one condition applies, multiply together all additional costs that apply. (This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling)

In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it’s not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can’t take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)

You can’t run or charge through any square that would hamper your movement.

Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

Accelerated Movement: You can try to walk across a precarious surface more quickly than normal. If you accept a –5 penalty, you can move your full speed as a move action. (Moving twice your speed in a round requires two Balance checks, one for each move action used.) You may also accept this penalty in order to charge across a precarious surface; charging requires one Balance check for each multiple of your speed (or fraction thereof ) that you charge.

I don't think Balance here is referring to speed reducing terrain at all. It talks about failure meaning you fall - not move slowly. There's nothing here that indicates Balance can be used to alleviate, for example, dense underbrush.

 

[frankthedm]

I still don't follow. Where does it state you cannot charge or run across speed reducing terrain with a successful Balance check?

Right here

Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)
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Difficult Terrain
Difficult terrain hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. (Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares.) You can’t run or charge across difficult terrain.

Balance provide an exception for slopes, the terrain rule also provide an exception for a handful of others, but those exceptions are called out. A balance check is not a cure all.