Charles Ryan on the Sacred Cows of D&D

[Berandor]

He's talking about a first-level spell, not character level. MM remains a very strong spell even when your higher level (I have often seen wizards eschewing firball or lightning bolt for MM) - that's where you can see it's unbalanced. If it remained at 1d4+1, it would be o.k.

And look at similar spells in level 1. Less damage, and attack roll or save. And force beats elemental damage, as well.

 

[diaglo]

I really don't understand how 1d4+1 twice a day can be considered too good, even at 1st-level. But I guess that's why I'm not a game designer. :\

not to mention it being the wizard/magic-user/mages only spell for that day in the older editions.

2-5 hps was enough on avg (3.5hp) to kill a 0 lvl commoner. it most times than not didn't kill an orc (4.5 avg). nor even a goblin (4hp)

 

[WizarDru]

I really don't understand how 1d4+1 twice a day can be considered too good, even at 1st-level. But I guess that's why I'm not a game designer. :\

That's because you're not factoring in anything but the damage. It's not 1d4+1...it's a GUARANTEED 1d4+1. Given the hit points of most creatures that are encountered at 1st level, that's pretty darned good. Consider that a lucky roll on MM could single-shot kill an average orc in full-plate with a tower shield who has partial cover and partial concealment.

MM stays useful throughout lower levels because it can hit creatures that sometimes no one else can, has medium range and can affect single or multiple targets without trouble. Quick: when fighting a ghost or spectre, which spell doesn't have a 50% miss chance: magic missle, fireball or lightning bolt? Which one doesn't allow a save?

And twice a day? A first level sorceror with a Charisma of 16 is throwing down three of them, as often as not. Wizards aren't the only ones with access to the spell.

Is it overpowered? Not in my opinion...but I could see how some folks would view it as such. It's an iconic spell, really.

 

[JVisgaitis]

Neat idea yes, but utterly overpowered.

Thanks for the explanation guys. Seems cool, I'll need to look into it more.

 

[Mythmere1]

Thanks, slightly off topic, for the intro to the various editions! I've always had difficulty explaining when I started playing - I started using the Holmes Basic Set. Cool!

 

[Lord Pendragon]

He's talking about a first-level spell, not character level. MM remains a very strong spell even when your higher level (I have often seen wizards eschewing firball or lightning bolt for MM) - that's where you can see it's unbalanced. If it remained at 1d4+1, it would be o.k.

At 20th-level, Magic Missile is doing 5d4+5, or an average of (if my poor math doesn't fail me,) 15 points of damage. I'm sorry, but whether it's an average of 3.5 points damage at 1st-level or 15 points of damage at 20th, I can't see how that's unbalanced.

And the only time I can imagine a wizard forsaking Fireball or Lightning Bolt for Magic Missile is when they either need a spell with discriminating targetting, or need a Force effect. Certainly not often, nor because of its overwhelming damage potential.

That's because you're not factoring in anything but the damage. It's not 1d4+1...it's a GUARANTEED 1d4+1. Given the hit points of most creatures that are encountered at 1st level, that's pretty darned good. Consider that a lucky roll on MM could single-shot kill an average orc in full-plate with a tower shield who has partial cover and partial concealment.

Perhaps I'm just not looking at it correctly. I look at the half-orc with the greataxe, who can kill that orc with average damage, round after round after round, and I still don't see the overpowering nature of Magic Missile. The wizard winds up having to make a lucky damage roll, the half-orc has to make a lucky attack roll. Sounds balanced to me, except for the part where the wizard can only do it twice and the half-orc can do it round after round after round.

MM stays useful throughout lower levels because it can hit creatures that sometimes no one else can, has medium range and can affect single or multiple targets without trouble. Quick: when fighting a ghost or spectre, which spell doesn't have a 50% miss chance: magic missle, fireball or lightning bolt? Which one doesn't allow a save?

I'm not saying Magic Missile is a useless spell. I'm saying it's in no way "too good" for a 1st-level spell. At least, so it seems to me.

Is it overpowered? Not in my opinion...but I could see how some folks would view it as such.

Fair enough.

 

[Steve Jung]

The Moldvay version Basic D&D Magic Missile was roll "to hit", and did 1d6+1 per missile. It gave you one extra missile per six caster levels. (Which was hilarious considering the rules only went to 3rd level!)
/snip/

This looked familiar. So I went digging in my archives. Monte Cook wrote a 3rd edition version like that. Instead of a attack roll, the target gets a save for half damage. It's called arcane bolt.

 

[diaglo]

This looked familiar. So I went digging in my archives. Monte Cook wrote a 3rd edition version like that. Instead of a attack roll, the target gets a save for half damage. It's called arcane bolt.

they have one in the Magic of Faerun book too like this... lesser orb or some similar name. you choose the type of energy you wish it to include. a 1st lvl spell.

arcane bolt or lesser orb or whatever it is called also appeared in Green Ronin's Arcane Pocketguide

 

[MerricB]

Back in 1E, magic missile was a lot more powerful.

Due to the initiative rules (if you knew how they worked), it could be cast before sword blows more often then other spells.

Fireballs and Lightning Bolts were extremely dangerous to use in confined spaces. (As in, you'll kill yourself and the rest of the party, as well as killing any treasure you wanted to obtain).

There was no damage cap - so a 20th level magic-user would deal 10d4+10 damage.

And, most importantly, monster Hit Points were much, much lower.

Cheers!

 

[diaglo]

There was no damage cap - so a 20th level magic-user would deal 10d4+10 damage.

still had to survive past 1st lvl though.

not many Magic-users did.

and i had no one achieve 20th.

you should talk to Tim Kask if you did.