Charm Person clairification...

[Spatula]

Well this is pretty much what happened in my case. So what should the outcome have been? The BBEG would have considered anyone who came into the room a "threat". However, I was invisible at the time of casting the spell, so I effectively wasn't there to be perceived as a threat. When the spell hit him, I became visible. Would he get the +5 bonus or not?

I would say no, since he wasn't aware of the threat until after the spell has already hit him. Although this is a big grey area and open to interpretation, obviously. Generally, I would only apply the save bonus to combat situations or 'tell-us-what-you-know-or-we-kill-you' sessions. I would, however, interpret the spell's effects very strictly. The target regards the caster as a friend, but the target's personality and the current situation is going to control how he treats his new buddy.

 

[RigaMortus]

Yes

If you are in a secret meeting discussing the overthrow of the government and you think they are going to be onto your plans, you are not going to trust a person who you have never seen pop out of thin air.

Yeah, but he didn't know I was there when the spell went off. The way I am picturing it is that he becomes my friend (because he failed the save) and then I appear before him.

I mean, what would the order of operation be here?

1)
Begin casting Charm Person
Target BBEG
BBEG rolls save (and fails because he gets no +5 bonus)
Spell is officially complete and I now become visible, with a new friend.

2)
Begin casting Charm Person
Target BBEG
I become visible because targetting the BBEG counts as an attack.
BBEG sees me pop out of thin air, and thinks I am a threat.
BBEG rolls save (and succeeds because he now gets +5)

 

[Christian]

If a person will not trust anyone, why would a 1st level spell change that?

Frankly, I'm concerned about potential abuse. "My new character, Grog the Barbarian, is completely paranoid and always thinks everyone is out to get him. Hey, that means he gets a permanent +5 to his saves versus Charm Person/Monster, right?"

DM judgment call, naturally. But I still like my call better than yours.

 

[LokiDR]

Yeah, but he didn't know I was there when the spell went off. The way I am picturing it is that he becomes my friend (because he failed the save) and then I appear before him.

I mean, what would the order of operation be here?

1)
Begin casting Charm Person
Target BBEG
BBEG rolls save (and fails because he gets no +5 bonus)
Spell is officially complete and I now become visible, with a new friend.

2)
Begin casting Charm Person
Target BBEG
I become visible because targetting the BBEG counts as an attack.
BBEG sees me pop out of thin air, and thinks I am a threat.
BBEG rolls save (and succeeds because he now gets +5)

Number 2

If he can not see you, how can you be a threat or non-threat? How do you feal about the air next to you? If a completely different group was attacking him, you were invisible, and you cast charm person, how would he know you were or were not with the attackers?

You can not use invisiblity to negate the "threat" a character would pose. If you would have just wandered into the room alone and visible, he would have gotten the +5.

 

[LokiDR]

Frankly, I'm concerned about potential abuse. "My new character, Grog the Barbarian, is completely paranoid and always thinks everyone is out to get him. Hey, that means he gets a permanent +5 to his saves versus Charm Person/Monster, right?"

DM judgment call, naturally. But I still like my call better than yours.

Grog would be an NPC.

If you won't trust your party members, you will not sleep around them. You won't fight for or with them, because they might stab you in the back. You would accuse them of being behind every bad thing that happened to you. You wouldn't last a single adventure. Yes, you would always get +5 vs the charm spells, but you wouldn't have the character. If a player wants to be stupid and try to abuse the rules, I will make him suffer everything that comes along with it.

But there are times when a character would be really paranoid about new people poping up. But even for paranoid characters, these times would be rare, like when they are committing a crime or plotting to.

 

[Zogg]

I'm going to have to put in a vote for this version:

2)
Begin casting Charm Person
Target BBEG
I become visible because targetting the BBEG counts as an attack.
BBEG sees me pop out of thin air, and thinks I am a threat.
BBEG rolls save (and succeeds because he now gets +5)

Personally I agree with your broader version of "threaten" - not the combat DnD term, but the RL term. Nevertheless I think you HAVE to be visible to charm someone, otherwise who would they be charmed by?