Charming goblins

[Lauberfen]

I was taking a look at the race templates in the back of the MM, when it struck me that both goblins and hobgoblins have +2 to charisma. I wonder if this is a massive typo, as a: it makes no sense, and goes directly against the grain of previous editions, and b: it is note reflected in any of the monster entries- most goblins and hobgoblins have 8 charisma, which they couldn't normally have if they had a bonus.

However it hasn't been erata'd, so I'm not sure. I was thinking about this partly because I've always thought goblins would be good wizards, and should probably have a bonus to intelligence.

 

[Mort_Q]

Goblinoids are very sure of themselves. I don't see a problem with this paradigm shift.

 

[Tale]

Older editions seemed to give Charisma penalties for races simply on the basis that humans didn't like those races. Thus, people wouldn't react favorably to them and they should get a social penalty which is what the -2 to Charisma represented. Well, Charisma based casting screwed that right to heck by making it also force of will and other nebulous ideas.

It seems that 4e is dropping the whole social penalty for being ugly and giving charisma boosts to anyone who's cocky.

 

[lukelightning]

I've always thought goblins would be good wizards, and should probably have a bonus to intelligence.

But goblins are not typically presented as a genius race (aside from steampunk-esque techno goblins). Nor are they typically mage-y, scholarly spellcasters; generally goblin casters are at the shamany, witchdoctory end of the spectrum.

Not to say that it's wrong to house-rule otherwise, of course. I can certainly see a world in which these little green jerks hoard troves of ancient knowledge and are lead by mighty wizards.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I didn't notice that yet! But I like it. (Except when not reflected in the monster statistics)
Goblins are very social creatures - or in other words, they appear in masses. They must be socially competent to live in a society where probably even cannibalismn is frowned upon, and to keep their lairs from bursting into violent conflicts.

 

[gizmo33]

It seems that 4e is dropping the whole social penalty for being ugly and giving charisma boosts to anyone who's cocky.

Great, well then I can't wait to start seeing shy reclusive sylphs with 4 charismas. I won't hold my breath. Seriously though, I don't think it's unreasonable that monsters taken from human mythology would have human-centric attributes. It's not like there's another intelligent species out there that we can ask for their opinion. Then again, force of personality might include "scary" and so scary monsters would have high charisma scores. Or just give them all 10 charisma. Based on some lines of reasoning it would be hard to argue why an intelligent gray ooze couldn't have 18 charisma.

 

[lukelightning]

it would be hard to argue why an intelligent gray ooze couldn't have 18 charisma.

It's called "oozing with sex appeal"

 

[Lauberfen]

My issue is mostly that almost no goblins even have positive charisma!

I'd already realised that ugly does not equal low charisma, but traditionally it's not just that goblins are ugly- their usually selfish (thus not being interested in others, wanting or understanding how to please them/manipulate them), crude and petty. I don't see a major change in their character from the fluff either. It looks strongly to me like they were making the race templates, and realised they needed a second bonus, and arbitrarily stuck it on charisma.

 

[Tale]

their usually selfish (thus not being interested in others, wanting or understanding how to please them/manipulate them),

Understanding would be Insight, keyed to Wisdom.

I'll agree that it's arbitrary, but Charisma is kind of a catch-all thing for nebulous qualities as it is. But they could definitely stand to be more consistent with it.

 

[JDillard]

I love it, personally. As stated above, Goblins are highly social creatures. Charisma should never just apply to pretty, when you've got an Intimidate skill based off of it as well. I see goblin society as very much one of browbeating, intimidation, ruling through fear and so forth. This is the sort of society in which charisma is perhaps *more* valuable than our modern one, as intellect and wisdom have almost no relevance to them.

If there's an error, I'm more inclined to think that the monster entry for goblins is the incorrect one. Perhaps two different people worked on each (one on the monster entry, one on the "monsters as pcs" entry) and didn't discuss their difffering views on what Charisma means?

Regardless, I think it's neat and fits my concept of goblins better than previous editions. I'm very excited to try out my hobgoblin Starlock character (yes, I know Starlock is kinda dumb, but the RP flavor man... the flavor! How can I resist?)