Charms and Agreements

[Kaodi]

So, here is an example of a situation: You are a sorcerer with the charm person spell and a high bluff score, but no diplomacy beyond your natural charisma. You want to convince someone to do something for you, say, be a general in your new nation (*cough*Kingmaker*cough). If you use the charm person spell, for an hour per level the target behaves as if friendly to you, and you have established that if this person were friendly instead of indifferent, you could convince them to be a general.

The questions are:

1) Would a person know that they have been charmed after the spell wears off?

2) If they did not know they had been charmed, would they likely keep to any agreement made while charmed, even if they ordinarily might not have made the agreement?

3) If you charmed someone, and improved their feelings towards you a step, once the charm wore off would their feelings still be improved by a step over what they had initially been?

4) Is charming someone in a world of prevalent magic likely to be considered a gross offence if you did not ask them to do anything, strictly speaking, bad for them?

 

[Jhaelen]

1) Would a person know that they have been charmed after the spell wears off?

2) If they did not know they had been charmed, would they likely keep to any agreement made while charmed, even if they ordinarily might not have made the agreement?

3) If you charmed someone, and improved their feelings towards you a step, once the charm wore off would their feelings still be improved by a step over what they had initially been?

4) Is charming someone in a world of prevalent magic likely to be considered a gross offence if you did not ask them to do anything, strictly speaking, bad for them?

1) Not automatically. The target may still wonder about the way she reacted and 'guess' what happened, particularly if she has knowledge in Arcana.

2) This depends a bit on the target's character traits. In general I'd assume the target would try to get out of the agreement.

3) Definitely not. As mentioned in 1) this may actually serve as a hint for the target that something fishy was going on.

4) Like 2) this will depend somewhat on the target's character traits. As a default I'd assume the target to be offended, though. The only exceptions I can think of would be targeting a weak-willed individual or someone living in a society that considers magical control to be a standard means of enforcing your will (e.g. in the Dark Sun setting).

 

[frankthedm]

Never forget Spells are cast with a strong voice and strange hand gestures. No one is going to miss those and the charm spell does not include any freebie amnesia.

 

[Umbran]

Never forget Spells are cast with a strong voice and strange hand gestures. No one is going to miss those and the charm spell does not include any freebie amnesia.

Charm Person has a range of 25+ feet - if planned beforehand, it can be done from some distance, perhaps from concealment in a place with a bit of noise, so that it is discrete.

The bigger challenge may be that (if I recall correctly) folks who make their saving throws know that *something* was attempted, and the caster does not generally know if the target made the save.

So, your target feels a funny shivver, and then the caster comes around the corner to glad-hand him. If you want him to be your general, he isn't stupid. Even if he doesn't know a lot about magic, he may get the idea that something funny was up.

If the charm works, but he does figure it out later, and he's not happy, you've got a guy in control of a significant swath of your forces cheesed off at you. Bad scene. Not smart.

 

[steenan]

If I was running this, I would take into account:

- Why didn't this person agree to help you before? Only some reasons will be nullified when he suddenly likes you. There are things that you won't do even if a friend asks you, and charm magic doesn't force anybody to act against their best judgement. On the other hand, he might have good reasons to join your cause and was stopped by some emotional hangup - in this case, charm will definitely work.

- What was their previous attitude towards you? Why? Depending on this, he'll either easily rationalize why his feelings changed (and my keep the improved attitude even after magic dissipates) or will become suspicious some trick was used (especially if he knows something about magic).

- What happens to him because of what you persuaded him to under the spell? Does he enjoy that? Can he act in agreement with his values? Is anything important to him endangered? If he likes what you pulled him into, he'll stay even when he learns that a charm was used. If he does not, he'll try to cancel the deal even if there's no magic at all (knowing that there was something suspicious or that he was outright charmed may just remove any feeling of being honor-bound).

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

So, here is an example of a situation: You are a sorcerer with the charm person spell and a high bluff score, but no diplomacy beyond your natural charisma. You want to convince someone to do something for you, say, be a general in your new nation (*cough*Kingmaker*cough). If you use the charm person spell, for an hour per level the target behaves as if friendly to you, and you have established that if this person were friendly instead of indifferent, you could convince them to be a general.

The questions are:

1) Would a person know that they have been charmed after the spell wears off?

I don't think they automatically know. However, if you abused them during this period, they would at least wonder why they didn't "act right". In a world where magic is known, they'd get suspicious, especially if they knew you were a spellcaster.

2) If they did not know they had been charmed, would they likely keep to any agreement made while charmed, even if they ordinarily might not have made the agreement?

How iron-clad is this agreement? Is there a cool-off period? Sometimes people make rash decisions, and sometimes they overturn them, but other times they're too embarrassed to do so.

They might wonder why they felt so "friendly" toward you then but not now, but unless they know they've been charmed, there's at least some chance the agreement will stand.

3) If you charmed someone, and improved their feelings towards you a step, once the charm wore off would their feelings still be improved by a step over what they had initially been?

Charm improves their feelings more than one step I assume you meant diplomacizing them the old-fashioned way while they're charmed (and enjoying a bonus while doing so). If so, I believe their feelings would remain "good" (see point 1 about abuse; this is the opposite).

4) Is charming someone in a world of prevalent magic likely to be considered a gross offence if you did not ask them to do anything, strictly speaking, bad for them?

Yes. Of course, if they don't know they've been charmed, you've gotten away with that part.

I think this technique would backfire. Assuming noone was suspicious from the get go (unlikely, the only way to pull this off would be to charm the person without witnesses, and they'd still remember you casting some sort of spell, so you'd need to lie about what spell you were casting; not to mention advisers with high Sense Motive who can spot enchanted people, etc), if they became suspicious later, expect to be spied on by a lot of subordinates, including the right-hand-man/woman they're foisting on you, the low-ranking soldier who gives you tea and you never pay attention to, etc.

Also you have to put up with jealousy (longer-serving officers want your job), the bureaucracy of getting into that position, etc. The king (or whoever did the hiring) might be forced to fire the charmer, and indeed might do that without being forced!

 

[LostSoul]

1) Would a person know that they have been charmed after the spell wears off?

Not generally, no, but I imagine it would depend on the request you were making and how you cast the spell.

2) If they did not know they had been charmed, would they likely keep to any agreement made while charmed, even if they ordinarily might not have made the agreement?

Probably, unless they are the type of person to go back on their word (ie. untrustworthy, can't keep promises).

3) If you charmed someone, and improved their feelings towards you a step, once the charm wore off would their feelings still be improved by a step over what they had initially been?

Doubtful, but it depends on what happened during the charm period.

4) Is charming someone in a world of prevalent magic likely to be considered a gross offence if you did not ask them to do anything, strictly speaking, bad for them?

Yes.

 

[KiloGex]

1. My feelings are that the target of a spell always knows that they are such, either during or after. Especially in a campaign where magic is prevalent, a person under the affects of a charm spell would most likely come to the conclusion that this is why they have been so nice to a person that they weren't all that chummy with previously.

2. Even if they didn't know that they were under a spell when they made the agreement, unless they are being held by contract (and in the case of Kingmaker I highly doubt that even a contract could hold them to their word) and then suddenly you felt less inclined to help these people, I don't foresee a person saying "Well, I really don't like you now, but I'll stick to my word even though I'm not sure why I would have agreed to this in the first place."

3. In this case, I feel that once the charm wore off, the target's feelings towards the caster would return to what they were before the charm spell, regardless of if the caster was able to improve the target's feelings during it.

4. Charming someone in order to get them to do something you want is coercion, and I would take it as a gross misuse of power, definitely taken in a negative view of the target and possibly the other people in the town.

 

[ValhallaGH]

1) Would a person know that they have been charmed after the spell wears off?
2) If they did not know they had been charmed, would they likely keep to any agreement made while charmed, even if they ordinarily might not have made the agreement?
3) If you charmed someone, and improved their feelings towards you a step, once the charm wore off would their feelings still be improved by a step over what they had initially been?
4) Is charming someone in a world of prevalent magic likely to be considered a gross offence if you did not ask them to do anything, strictly speaking, bad for them?

1) Probably not, but the implications of that are killer for a paranoid PC.
2) Do you feel obligated to keep deals you made while intoxicated? Similar levels of disconnect and confusion will be present. Generally, people will stick to such deals but will have a great desire to get out of them (unless it turns out to be awesome).
3) Probably not. But that's what good role play can do for you - turn them into a friend without making a roll.
4) Yes. It's akin to slipping a ruphie into their drink - it doesn't matter what you do to them while they're under, it's just not done by people.


Good luck.