Cheating, Action Points, and Second Wind

[shilsen]

What if you defined what those things were and rewarded XP for that?

Or another step further - defined those enjoyable moments, rewarded something that makes those moments more possible?

I'm not Mallus, but I'm in his group (and vice versa) and I'm a big proponent of the approach to XP he mentioned, so I'll take a crack at the questions.

My personal take on it is simple. Using XP as a reward system is like grading players based on my personal preferences for the game. And as a teacher, I get more than enough grading in my day job. I'd much rather treat XP as a metagame construct (which is frankly what I think it is) which exists to facilitate something that players enjoy - characters going up in levels and getting powerful.

As long as the group enjoys getting together and playing the game, I can just award a fixed amount of XP per session to keep PCs advancing at a speed I'm comfortable with. And if the group doesn't enjoy the game, I seriously doubt XP awards will improve it.

In short, using XP awards based on any formula and/or on PC actions just doesn't provide any bonuses to my game and provides some negatives I'd rather not deal with. So I don't.

 

[shilsen]

Yup, this positive feedback loop is really important and by doing arbitrary leveling, you kill it.[/quote[

Really important for your game. Not mine. Which is why I already killed it.

[quote[If the D&D loop (be good at killing monsters so you'll get XP, than level up and fight bigger monsters with bigger tools) doesn't please you, the best thing is probably to try another RPG.

If a variation of the D&D loop (enjoy all the different things you can do in the game, level up, and enjoy all the things you get to do at the next level, level up again, etc.) works for me, the best thing for me to do is to play with that variation.

In short, I don't think my approach to D&D works for everyone. And I don't think your approach to D&D works for me. Luckily neither of us has to play in the other's game, so we can both have fun with D&D.

 

[Professor Phobos]

As long as the group enjoys getting together and playing the game, I can just award a fixed amount of XP per session to keep PCs advancing at a speed I'm comfortable with. And if the group doesn't enjoy the game, I seriously doubt XP awards will improve it.

This is close to how I feel about it. I don't like rewarding particular bits inside the game, because I feel that any given game session, no matter what actually happens, should be rewarding to all involved.

If we spend a whole session in a complex political negotiation, I don't see why there should be less XP than a whole session on a life-or-death struggle to survive. Or a whole session on the characters taking a break and relaxing, just RPing how they spend their time.

I don't even like rewarding in-game success over in-game failure, because failure is often highly entertaining. If the negotiations fail and the characters now have to prepare for war, how is that "less fun" then the negotiations succeeding due to the cleverness of the PCs and now they have to deal with new allies?

XP is, then, just a mechanism for gradually escalating the scale at which the PCs act and their options. I see little reason not to just set a flat rate or have level ups occur at moments I (we, they) deem appropriate.

It's everyone's duty to keep things interesting. If that's not happening, the game has a group-level problem, not a mechanics-level problem.

 

[buzz]

But if you want to play that kind of game, why not just load up a CRPG or a MMORPG?

Because CRPGs/MMORPGs still aren't as enjoyable as interacting with real people together at a table, all using their brains in a collective, creative pastime. Just because a game is challenge-focused doesn't mean that it's no better than a video game.

I'd actually flip the question around on you and ask: If you're not interested in challenge/combat, level-up play, why are you playing an RPG (D&D) focused on delivering challenge/combat, level-up play?

(I've asked my D&D group this very question in the past, because there are a couple people in our group that are not particularly rules or tactics folk. The typical answers I get are rooted in nostalgia and familiarity. The fact that the RAW don't provide them with the play experience they often want, strangely enough, doesn't seem to phase them.)

Everything that I've been saying in this thread—and I think a lot of what some others have been saying—is all within the context of D&D. Change to a different RPG that's focused on a different play style, and I'll likely answer differently.

 

[buzz]

In a level system, I'd probably just have them level up at arbitrarily designated "storyline escalation" milestones, or whenever they got around to asking about leveling up.

For me, having advancement solely in the hands of the DM really puts me off. Definitely not the kind of D&D that I enjoy.

OTOH, I could totally see doing this in a game of Spirit of the Century ("How about we all add two more Aspects? I think it's time").

 

[Professor Phobos]

.
I'd actually flip the question around on you and ask: If you're not interested in challenge/combat, level-up play, why are you playing an RPG (D&D) focused on delivering challenge/combat, level-up play?

Because I'm not convinced that's all D&D can do, or the only way to do D&D "properly." It's also not all that much work to modify to taste. It's not that big of a gap.

 

[Mallus]

What if you defined what those things were and rewarded XP for that?

Or another step further - defined those enjoyable moments, rewarded something that makes those moments more possible?

Let's say you all get a kick out of cool, off-the-wall moves in combat. When someone does one of those cool things and the DM notices everyone is into it, he gives the player an Action Point.

Those Action Points, when spent, allow you do do/succeed more easily at the cool, off-the-wall moves.

Say, you might be on to something...

I formally ditched "XP as reward" in my last campaign because I knew full and well that I couldn't be a unbiased judge; I'd reward people for playing the game my way. Which wouldn't work seeing as I DM for a group where each player enjoys a different aspect of the game.

But let's say I awarded Action Points to players for doing what they enjoyed most; butt-kickers would get AP's for butt-kicking, immersion-ophiles for playing whole scenes in character, schemers for scheming... that would rock. Not only is it rewarding players for playing the way they see fit, it rewards taking risks. The more proactive you are, the more resources you accumulate.

Thank you. I really think I might use this in my next campaign.

 

[Mallus]

For me, having advancement solely in the hands of the DM really puts me off. Definitely not the kind of D&D that I enjoy.

OTOH, I could totally see doing this in a game of Spirit of the Century ("How about we all add two more Aspects? I think it's time").

Out of curiosity, what difference does the system make? Isn't how much you trust the person running the game the deciding factor?

 

[Mallus]

If the D&D loop (be good at killing monsters so you'll get XP, than level up and fight bigger monsters with bigger tools)...

Reductive much?

 

[Hella_Tellah]

Say, you might be on to something...

I formally ditched "XP as reward" in my last campaign because I knew full and well that I couldn't be a unbiased judge; I'd reward people for playing the game my way. Which wouldn't work seeing as I DM for a group where each player enjoys a different aspect of the game.

But let's say I awarded Action Points to players for doing what they enjoyed most; butt-kickers would get AP's for butt-kicking, immersion-ophiles for playing whole scenes in character, schemers for scheming... that would rock. Not only is it rewarding players for playing the way they see fit, it rewards taking risks. The more proactive you are, the more resources you accumulate.

Thank you. I really think I might use this in my next campaign.

Or you could do it more democratically, removing the idea of the DM as judge entirely. At the beginning of the session, hand each of the players five poker chips, and keep five for yourself. Whenever one player likes something another player does, he hands that player a chip. Redeem all poker chips for experience at the end of the game. This encourages the players not just to do the things they like, but to dabble in doing things all the other players like.

Also, I'm really on a crusade for physical tokens as meta-game elements at the moment.