D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Yaarel]

The designers have said since the beginning of 5e, that all gaming math assumes there are no magic items.

All comparisons between 5e classes assume no magic items, including comparisons between Wizard shenanigans and Fighter damage dealing.

It is true that the DMs Guide recommends magic items, that official adventures reward with many magic items, and some creatures even require a magic item to hit them, but the math doesnt reflect this presence of magic items.

In principle, the DM completely controls the amount of magic items, if any. Giving a magic item to a character, makes the character better than the math expects.

 

[Mort]

It's the old "It doesn't matter if it works for you or millions of other people. It doesn't work because I complain about it so therefore it doesn't work. How do I know it doesn't work? Just look at how much I complain about it!"

If it doesn't work for you, why give details or ask for possible solutions. Why bother reexamining what the real issue is? Just continue to post complaints until people get tired of the incessant venting and then claim moral victory! Woo-hoo! You just won the internet!

There have been many details provided in this thread re: why there are issues and what they are, not only visceral complaints.

There have also been some decent solutions, such as take a look at level up, consider giving the fighter intrinsic magic items etc.

 

[Oofta]

The designers have said since the beginning of 5e, that all gaming math assumes there are no magic items.

All comparisons between 5e classes assume no magic items, including comparisons between Wizard shenanigans and Fighter damage dealing.

It is true that the DMs Guide recommends magic items, that official adventures reward with many magic items, and some creatures even require a magic item to hit them, but the math doesnt reflect this presence of magic items.

In principle, the DM completely controls the amount of magic items, if any. Giving a magic item to a character, makes the character better than the math expects.

But no magic items would theoretically include scrolls, right? So wizards would be limited in the spells that they know to the two they learn when they level. That can significantly limit the options they have. In addition, throw more than 2-3 fights per long rest and most casters will be down to cantrips before long.

So yes, magic items affect things. Just don't ignore that casters benefit just as much as any other class.

 

[Lyxen]

There have been many details provided in this thread re: why there are issues and what they are, not only visceral complaints.

And the "issues" are all theoretical and based on certain particular views of the game and how it should be played. Not only are there other ways, just as valid, to play the game, but even when playing the game with these views, in actual games, there are no such problems that a DM cannot solve using the plethora of means at his disposal.

There have also been some decent solutions, such as take a look at level up, consider giving the fighter intrinsic magic items etc.

And that's fine, if people want a different balance, more crunch, etc. they can take up many other solutions, it's just that there are already many built into the game.

 

[DND_Reborn]

While scrolls are magic items, IME most wizards learn additional spells by gaining them from other spellcasters, ancient tomes, etc., not from scrolls. So, wizards are certainly not limited to only the spells they gain from leveling and don't need scrolls, either. Besides, at 10th level a wizard would have 24 spells available to them, regardless.

Meanwhile, Clerics and Druids have access to all their spells when they prepare them. Only the known spell casters really might rely on scrolls IMO.

By level 10, a wizard has 15 spells per long rest, not to mention another 1-4 spells via Arcane Recovery at that level. At 2-3 spells, non-cantrips, per encounter, you can have 5-8 encounters per long rest before a wizard will be down to cantrips only.

 

[Lyxen]

But no magic items would theoretically include scrolls, right? So wizards would be limited in the spells that they know to the two they learn when they level. That can significantly limit the options they have.

In fact, Wizards are inherently severly limited by finding scrolls or spellbooks but also by the gold cost of scribing spells into their spellbook.

Of course, if you choose to make these a non-issue in your game, you are favorising the wizards, but it's not the inherent design of the game.

In addition, throw more than 2-3 fights per long rest and most casters will be down to cantrips before long.

And exactly the same thing here, if your choose to allow Wizards and casters to go nova, it's not something that is inherent with the design of the game.

In the end, if you unbalance the game even further (the game is not designed to be perfectly balanced anyway) by giving casters tons of advantage, how can you be surprised that they are advantaged ?

 

[Oofta]

While scrolls are magic items, IME most wizards learn additional spells by gaining them from other spellcasters, ancient tomes, etc., not from scrolls. So, wizards are certainly not limited to only the spells they gain from leveling.

Those ancient tomes are also magical IMHO, and rarely exist in my campaign. The DM controls access to them just as much as they control access to magic items that would be useful to fighters.

Meanwhile, Clerics and Druids have access to all their spells when they prepare them. Only the known spell casters really might rely on scrolls IMO.

True, but people only ever seem to complain about wizards.

By level 10, a wizard has 15 spells per long rest, not to mention another 1-4 spells via Arcane Recovery at that level. At 2-3 spells, non-cantrips, per encounter, you can have 5-8 encounters per long rest before a wizard will be down to cantrips only.

Sure, but what level spells? You have 2 5th level spells at level 10, you can recover 1 during your short rest. All I can say is that the casters at my table frequently talk about running on empty before they get a long rest.

 

[Oofta]

There have been many details provided in this thread re: why there are issues and what they are, not only visceral complaints.

There have also been some decent solutions, such as take a look at level up, consider giving the fighter intrinsic magic items etc.

I've given some answers myself. As far as I can tell the issue is with 5 minute work days, I think changing how recovering spells work might be a good idea. But people seem to expect fighters to have the same role in the party as wizards, bards, druids and clerics combined. That because the fighter can't cast teleport, they're somehow less than the wizard. I don't think they're less, they're just different.

The game isn't perfect. Nothing ever is. But 5E is far better than pre-4E games where at a certain level it didn't matter what the rest of the party did if you had an optimized wizard after a certain level. There are still levels in 5E where some classes outshine others for a lot of people, people have preferences. Fighters aren't for everyone, fortunately there are plenty of options.

Some suggestions that may or may not apply

• Don't have 5 minute work days. I typically have somewhere between 4 and 10 encounters.*
• Don't give wizards easy access to any spell they could possibly want. At least not without giving fighters access to helpful magic items.
• Enforce the rules on the cost of transcribing spells and don't hand out tons o' gold.
• Enforce the rules on material components, not just the costly ones. For example, Find the Path only works if you are familiar with the location and have an object from that location.
• Have different environments and restrictions. If the wizard is wiping out the enemy with fireball every encounter,
  • set up scenarios where fireball is a bad idea. Don't ignore that fireball sets unattended objects on fire.
  • Don't have the bad guys show up in fireball formation every encounter
  • Throw in monsters that are immune to fire now and then.
• Give opponents counterspell and dispel magic.
• Attack the wizard with the concentration spell they're relying on.
• Give enemies spell resistance sometimes
• Throw a beholder at the party, or even just threaten to.
• Switch up enemy spellcaster spells so they have useful things like globe of invulnerability
• Accept that some people like playing fighters (including champion fighters) because many people, like me, like simple characters.

Those are just the things people can do off the top of my head.

*Every once in a while I'll let the party know there will only be 1 or 2 encounters between long rests so the casters can have fun going nova.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I'm done because there's no point. I've played and run games to 20th level. Fighters worked just fine for us, including my lowly champion fighter.

The system isn't the problem.

I believe that you have mentioned that you play with a couple of homebrew rules that limit recovering spell slots/long rests.

Have you found that these tend to even things out? What sort of proportion of combat rounds are the wizards using cantrips/other at wills?
That could be useful for setting a baseline.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Those ancient tomes are also magical IMHO, and rarely exist in my campaign. The DM controls access to them just as much as they control access to magic items that would be useful to fighters.

While not magical IMHO, I agree they are rare. However, capturing enemy wizard spellbooks has long been a tried and true method for expanding a wizard's spelllist. While not common, it happens enough to well supplement IMO.

True, but people only ever seem to complain about wizards.

Yeah, I've wondered about that myself. While wizards are powerful, the fact other prepared spell casters have full access to all their spells bothers me, and known spell casters have so few spells IMO it is also an issue. I mean, poor Sorcerers only ever get 15 knowns spells, which by the end is less than 2 spells per spell level they can cast. Even with metamagic, that is sort of sad IMO.

Anyway, when compared to fighters, Bards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks all have many spells which overlap with Wizards, so if Wizards are an issue, the others are hardly ever mentioned. The biggest problem I see really is making such classes as good at fighting as fighters... Casters should not be as good in combat IMO, but others want everything.

Sure, but what level spells? You have 2 5th level spells at level 10, you can recover 1 during your short rest. All I can say is that the casters at my table frequently talk about running on empty before they get a long rest.

You also have 3rd, 4th, and even 1st and 2nd can be useful buffs, if not direct damage.

I can't really comment on your personal experience, but in mine it is rarely an issue because casters are more conservative, not knowing when another long rest will be coming.