D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Minigiant]

By the base numbers, it is. But when you look at what is possible for a surge to accomplish vs. a single spell of 6th level and higher, especially 8th and 9th, the surge just doesn't compete IMO. Surges might wreck a creature or two, those spells shift the dynamic of the entire encounter.


Yet the fighter gets those 4 attacks every round, the caster might get 1 or 2 of the big bangs off in an encounter.

As much as I hate the "typical adventuring day", with 6-8 encounters at 2-3 rounds each, you average about 18 rounds.

The fighter has two AS for 8 attacks in two rounds, plus 4 attacks for 16 rounds, a total of 80 attacks.

Using their highest spell slots, a wizard would use all their spell slots but 1st level and some 2nd:
9, 8, 7, 7, 6, 6, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, (two extra from Arcane Recover), 4, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 2; for a total of 91 spell levels.

Improving fighters to an Extra Attack (4), would bump them up to 100 attacks in the 18 rounds, while scaling it to the minimum 6 would be an astounding 120 attacks in 18 rounds.

If you can equate how 1 attack = X number of spell levels or 1 spell level = T number of attacks, you could decide just where you want the number of attacks to sit. Personally, I think 5 would be ok, but IMO 6 would be a bit much

It's not the number of surges or number of attacks a day.

Which is a higher growth in power.

• A 1st level spell to a 9th level spell
• Attack action to Attack action Extra Attack 3 Action Surge Attack action Extra Attack 3

I mean. WOTC went out their way to limit 8th and 9th level spells to 1 per day each, 6-7th to 2 per day each, and made sure NOTHING NEVER EVER can to cover them but long rests or epic boons

They didn't do so for fighter stuff. The classes features barely had any limits but no double action surge. The fighter clearly doesn't grow in combat power on the same curve that caster grow in supernaturalness.

If the fighter grew in combat power that same rate D&D spells grow, how many Attacks, Second Winds, Feats, and Action Surges would it have?

 

[DND_Reborn]

If the fighter grew in combat power that same rate D&D spells grow, how many Attacks, Second Winds, Feats, and Action Surges would it have?

Sure, but that is true of every class that is not a full-caster, isn't it?

The casters with the most powerful (in general terms) spells are also the weakest in hit points and armor class IME. Also, wizards in particular have a huge disadvantage over all other casters in their spellbooks. Without their spellbook, a wizard can be truly screwed in many situations!

Now, you say it isn't about attacks or surges, but then you go right back and say they should have more of those plus extras on top.

It still goes back to the point of at-will features vs. limited use (3-4 attacks per round vs. 1 spell). The limited use by default has to be stronger because it is limited.

That isn't to say there aren't other issues (I've been arguing most of them from the beginning LOL), but I return to my question:

How many attacks (what fighters do) is worth 1 spell level to you?

 

[Campbell]

From my perspective it's always been about the impact of your decisions as a player. The skill cap and floor on a caster are remarkably far apart. On a fighter there is barely any distance.

 

[Faolyn]

It's not the number of surges or number of attacks a day.

Which is a higher growth in power.

• A 1st level spell to a 9th level spell
• Attack action to Attack action Extra Attack 3 Action Surge Attack action Extra Attack 3

I mean. WOTC went out their way to limit 8th and 9th level spells to 1 per day each, 6-7th to 2 per day each, and made sure NOTHING NEVER EVER can to cover them but long rests or epic boons

They didn't do so for fighter stuff. The classes features barely had any limits but no double action surge. The fighter clearly doesn't grow in combat power on the same curve that caster grow in supernaturalness.

If the fighter grew in combat power that same rate D&D spells grow, how many Attacks, Second Winds, Feats, and Action Surges would it have?

To be entirely fair here, a wizard with a 9th-level spell slot can cast meteor swarm and inflict 40d6 damage to as many creatures who can fit in a 40-foot-radius sphere once per day, with a single action. How long would it take a fighter to do the same thing, even with a tricked-out weapon?

 

[Minigiant]

Sure, but that is true of every class that is not a full-caster, isn't it?

Not really.
The Rogue shows a progression that is almost as big as going from 1st level spells to 9th level spells.

Now, you say it isn't about attacks or surges, but then you go right back and say they should have more of those plus extras on top.

I said it's not about the attacks per day but the attacks per turn.

In my head, the fighter's attacks should grows faster.

4 levels to get your 2nd attack (5th level)
3 levels to get your 3rd attack (8th level)
2 levels to get your 4th attack (10th level)
2 levels to get your 5th attack (12th level)
2 levels to get your 6th attack (14th level)
2 levels to get your 7th attack (16th level)
2 levels to get your 8th attack (18th level)
1 level to get your 9th attack (19th level)
1 level to get your 10th attack (20th level)

The issue is a fighter with 10 base attacks and an option for 20 attacks would be a horrorshow to run. But logically, a20th level fighter should be a walking talking blender or machine gun.

I mean what's the equivalent to an archmage? A swordsman or archer who can kill 10 grunts every turn until he drops. That shouldn't even be that immersion breaking to the "anti-superhero fighter" fans of D&D. The best knight on the planet falls off his horse, gets up, an a dozen enemy footmen are just decapitated, brained, or heart stabbed. Feels right to me.

Possibly then gate the bonus Extra attacks behind Action Surge. Your action with Action Surge is better, Your acttack action has double or tripe attacks. Your Dash action has double or triple speed. Etc.

It still goes back to the point of at-will features vs. limited use (3-4 attacks per round vs. 1 spell). The limited use by default has to be stronger because it is limited.

I was comparing an Action surge to a High magic spell. Limited feature to limited feature.

How many attacks (what fighters do) is worth 1 spell level to you?

The depends on the level of the spell.

Level 1 spell = 1 bonus attacks
Level 5 spell= 5 bonus attacks
Level 9 spell = 12? bonus attacks

 

[Oofta]

To be entirely fair here, a wizard with a 9th-level spell slot can cast meteor swarm and inflict 40d6 damage to as many creatures who can fit in a 40-foot-radius sphere once per day, with a single action. How long would it take a fighter to do the same thing, even with a tricked-out weapon?

How often does that come up other than in hypothetical scenarios? I've seen it once. You know what? The DM did a good natured groan and we all cheered.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Possibly then gate the bonus Extra attacks behind Action Surge. Your action with Action Surge is better, Your acttack action has double or tripe attacks. Your Dash action has double or triple speed. Etc.

Sure, I've been suggesting AS do that literally for days now.

If you keep Extra Attack (4) but have AS scale as well, you could get something like 12 or 16 attacks on the round you surge. Personally, it is a bit much to my tastes, but for you it might work well?

 

[Faolyn]

How often does that come up other than in hypothetical scenarios? I've seen it once. You know what? The DM did a good natured groan and we all cheered.

Beats me. How often do any of these hypothetical situations come up?

 

[Oofta]

Beats me. How often do any of these hypothetical situations come up?

You were the one that brought up meteor storm as broken. I was just pointing out that it's been exceptionally rare that for us it mattered. When I say high level fighters seem to worked just fine for us I'm speaking as player and DM.

So my examples have been 3 campaigns working on a 4th. It hasn't been hypothetical for me. So I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Minigiant]

Sure, I've been suggesting AS do that literally for days now.

If you keep Extra Attack (4) but have AS scale as well, you could get something like 12 or 16 attacks on the round you surge. Personally, it is a bit much to my tastes, but for you it might work well?

I remember. That's close to my preference.

A tiered Action Surge.